Help with a sword: Tibet???

ariel · 16th June 2014, 01:51 AM

Dear Colleagues,
This sword came to my humble abode quite some time ago and I still do not know where is it from.
Start simple: dimensions. Total length 21". Width at the handle 13/8". Then there is a "step": but the width does not change appreciably. Then it forms a 10" long yelman that is 1.5" wide, There are simple decorations formed of uninterrupted "gurda" ( eyelashes) elements. The blade has a hairpin design, and that is why I am mentioning Tibet as a potential source.The guard is brass, somewhat Chinese in appearance, but flattened.
The handle is wooden with a ribbon of some fishskin in the middle. The tang must go through the handle and is pinned at the top.

No scabbard.

Any ideas?

ariel · 16th June 2014, 01:54 AM

Final batch

Jim McDougall · 16th June 2014, 02:33 AM

This one is really interesting, and total deja vu! I got of these, virtually identical about 15 years ago and it was identified as 'Tibetan' using the fabled 'Oldman' catalog as a reference. A quick bit of research found an identical example in a Tribal Arts magazine in an article by curator of a Belgian museum, with it being placed in Dahomey (now Benin) . The example had been collected by a French officer in the 1850s it seems.

A check in "African Arms and Armor" found similar examples listed in the article on Dahomean arms by Palau Marti (plate in Spring). In the article by Marti there is one identical, I believe even the wavy lines, identified as one of the range of these weapons known as 'hwi'

In inconclusive research I believe the wavy lines may have to do with the snake in the pantheon of folk religion in those regions, but these seem to have what appear to be dentations which seem to make these like the arcs of sickle marks in linear motif.

There was a good deal of dispute on whether these were Tibetan or African I believe mostly due to the Oldman entry, and I believe one other London dealer's catalog. However the Belgian museum and author as well as the Marti article in my opinion compellingly placed these as Dahomean Hwi .

I cannot recall all the details, but these I think may have been carried by the King (of Dahomey)s female warriors ( termed Amazon's by western visitors .

ariel · 16th June 2014, 04:12 AM

Wow!
Jim, many thanks. Totally unexpected attribution!
King Gezo was always my role model :-)

Jim McDougall · 16th June 2014, 04:25 AM

You bet Ariel, it was fun and really exciting that I could remember that much!!! (I aint getting any younger ya know!

Yeah, that guy Gezo had some pretty wild parties according to Burton.

These really are unusual shortswords and this is the first one Ive seen actually which corresponds almost identical to mine. As usual I will try to see if I can find an image of it and the details of all that research..it was around 2000 I think but maybe earlier.

I see what you mean about the 'hairpin' pattern in the steel, and that would be compelling toward Tibet......I cant recall if mine had the same but maybe that's why there were those Tibetan attributions. This one even had some of the top guns baffled.

ariel · 16th June 2014, 04:40 AM

Jim,
Your memory is truly phenomenal!
Not for nothing you are known as Google McDougall:-)

Here is another one just like that, posted millennia ago.
Dahomey, no doubt.

ariel · 16th June 2014, 04:43 AM

Top guns, my foot :-)
To join the "mis-attribution company" with Oldman is a badge of honor!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th June 2014, 07:58 AM

Very impressive... Also note http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16143

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 16th June 2014, 05:07 PM

A colleague from another forum found this picture of Dahomean amazons: notice the handle of an identical form under the belt of the woman on the right.

Iain · 17th June 2014, 10:25 AM

This may be of interest.

spiral · 17th June 2014, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

This may be of interest.

Well that puts me off going to the party....

Spiral

ariel · 18th June 2014, 02:11 AM

Yes, I know this one: same swords on the left hip.
I knew of the bronze art of Benin, but this is the first time I see such an organized Damascus pattern on the African sword.

I did find the Buttin's example, and understand why he and Oldman never even thought of Africa as a source.

Any other examples?

16th June 2014, 01:51 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Help with a sword: Tibet??? NOT TRUE: DAHOMEY!!! Dear Colleagues, This sword came to my humble abode quite some time ago and I still do not know where is it from. Start simple: dimensions. Total length 21". Width at the handle 13/8". Then there is a "step": but the width does not change appreciably. Then it forms a 10" long yelman that is 1.5" wide, There are simple decorations formed of uninterrupted "gurda" ( eyelashes) elements. The blade has a hairpin design, and that is why I am mentioning Tibet as a potential source.The guard is brass, somewhat Chinese in appearance, but flattened. The handle is wooden with a ribbon of some fishskin in the middle. The tang must go through the handle and is pinned at the top. No scabbard. Any ideas? Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 16th June 2014 at 05:03 AM.

16th June 2014, 01:54 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	#2 Final batch Attached Images

16th June 2014, 04:40 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Your memory is truly phenomenal! Not for nothing you are known as Google McDougall:-) Here is another one just like that, posted millennia ago. Dahomey, no doubt. Attached Images

16th June 2014, 05:07 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A colleague from another forum found this picture of Dahomean amazons: notice the handle of an identical form under the belt of the woman on the right. Attached Images

17th June 2014, 10:25 AM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	This may be of interest. Attached Images

16th June 2014, 02:33 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	This one is really interesting, and total deja vu! I got of these, virtually identical about 15 years ago and it was identified as 'Tibetan' using the fabled 'Oldman' catalog as a reference. A quick bit of research found an identical example in a Tribal Arts magazine in an article by curator of a Belgian museum, with it being placed in Dahomey (now Benin) . The example had been collected by a French officer in the 1850s it seems. A check in "African Arms and Armor" found similar examples listed in the article on Dahomean arms by Palau Marti (plate in Spring). In the article by Marti there is one identical, I believe even the wavy lines, identified as one of the range of these weapons known as 'hwi' In inconclusive research I believe the wavy lines may have to do with the snake in the pantheon of folk religion in those regions, but these seem to have what appear to be dentations which seem to make these like the arcs of sickle marks in linear motif. There was a good deal of dispute on whether these were Tibetan or African I believe mostly due to the Oldman entry, and I believe one other London dealer's catalog. However the Belgian museum and author as well as the Marti article in my opinion compellingly placed these as Dahomean Hwi . I cannot recall all the details, but these I think may have been carried by the King (of Dahomey)s female warriors ( termed Amazon's by western visitors .

16th June 2014, 04:12 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wow! Jim, many thanks. Totally unexpected attribution! King Gezo was always my role model :-)

16th June 2014, 04:25 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	You bet Ariel, it was fun and really exciting that I could remember that much!!! (I aint getting any younger ya know! Yeah, that guy Gezo had some pretty wild parties according to Burton. These really are unusual shortswords and this is the first one Ive seen actually which corresponds almost identical to mine. As usual I will try to see if I can find an image of it and the details of all that research..it was around 2000 I think but maybe earlier. I see what you mean about the 'hairpin' pattern in the steel, and that would be compelling toward Tibet......I cant recall if mine had the same but maybe that's why there were those Tibetan attributions. This one even had some of the top guns baffled.

16th June 2014, 04:43 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Top guns, my foot :-) To join the "mis-attribution company" with Oldman is a badge of honor!

16th June 2014, 07:58 AM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Very impressive... Also note http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16143 Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

18th June 2014, 02:11 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, I know this one: same swords on the left hip. I knew of the bronze art of Benin, but this is the first time I see such an organized Damascus pattern on the African sword. I did find the Buttin's example, and understand why he and Oldman never even thought of Africa as a source. Any other examples?