wonderful Flyssa

[chregu]

hello together
This Flyssa gave me a friendly gestre shown!
shame, but can not be in the pictures do not see how wonderful this piece.
I'm happy for every information that I get this.
Handle material, wood, I tend to think rhino.
gruss chregu

[Flavio]

Hello
I think it's an older example of flissa, but i'm not expert (in general to be true ) on this kind of swords.... The handle from pics seems wood

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Chregu,
This truly is an attractive sword, and while it has a degree of age, it is most likely a 20th century interpretive traditional example, perhaps produced tribally in Kabyle regions. In Kabylia the acquisition of a sword by the young man has long been a kind of rite of passage. I would suggest perhaps this was made in that sense as while attractive, the detail is not as crisp as with those during the period of the known use of the form.

We have had many discussions on the flyssa through the years, with the usual opposing views on its probable origins. Whatever the case, it does not seem to be a weapon that was well established before the early 19th century. By the term 'flyssa' (French transliteration for the Iflysen tribes of the Kabyle Berbers, who were the tribal group apparantly producing these), the first reference is c.1827 in narrative by Spanish envoy.

The earliest example I have seen with provenance, and in the form we recognize in most in collections, was 1857 and captured by the French Foreign Legion in combat. It is noted by Camille Lacoste-Dujardin (1958) that by the 1860's the quality had begun to degrade, and while uncertain, it would seem thier actual use in general had greatly declined or ceased. As in many cases with edged weapons, thier traditional presence in tribal tradition probably remained in place well into the next century.

The hilt on this one seems wood, and the blade similar to Ottoman type swords of latter 19th c.into 20th c. . The early yataghans that are often suggested to have influenced original flyssa form were from 16th century and had a straight back with extremely deep belly blade.

I am attaching some illustrations of the typical flyssa hilt, which is an extremely stylized creature, often suggested to be a camel, at the pommel. Here can be seen the profuse geometric designs, especially the triangular linear motif, designed to protect against the evil eye in the folk religion of Berbers of these regions. Most of these designs and figures carry apotropaic properties, thus even when crudely done, the meaning prevails.

A very interesting piece which carries ethnographic native charm well.

All very best regards,
Jim


ref:
"Sabre Kabyles, Etude des Flyssa du Musee de l'Homme" by Camille Lacoste-Dujardin
Journal de la Societe des Africanistes
XXVIII , 1958

[TVV]

Chregu,

Very nice flyssa. As Jim has pointed out, the blade is quite similar to that of a yataghan. To me, from all the theories on the origin of the flyssa, the one which claims that it is derived from the yataghan has always seemed as the most plausible. Thus I can imagine this particular one being an example of a transitional form, and therefore possibly quite early.

As for the hilt, rhino horn can be tricky and there is no way of telling without seeing a picture of a side that is cut across the grain. Maybe a picture of the pommell would help.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Teodor
Actually, since it seems to be a 20th century weapon it would not actually be transitional though as the weapon form as represented in the mid 19th century examples I posted seems to have been well established by then. While the Kabyles were from what I understand never subjugated by the Ottomans, their influence was nevertheless profound among these tribes. As I mentioned, the rite of passage involving acquiring his own sword by a young man, and along with his 'fortune' or some semblance of financial stability, did not specify the sword to be a flyssa. In fact, the yataghan was extremely highly regarded, and there are certainly variant types that reflect some yataghan and some flyssa characteristics. To acquire an actual yataghan was considered very influential. It has been some time since this research was done, but these are points I recall.

This may be somewhat a hybrid in that sense, but again, it is not 'early' as it is probably 20th century. By this time, the well known style of flyssas had been largely collected, and fallen considerably out of use in warfare.

It seems crudely executed in the geometric designs, but this simply means they were probably applied by a tribal figure not necessarily advanced in craftsmanship. The meanings remain the same, and that is what is important.

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Jim,

It seems to me that often we estimate age based on overall quality, which is not an absolutely certain method. Obviously, the older pieces that have survived tend to be those, whose owners found them worth keeping, or in other words, those that were of high quality.

This does not mean though that there were not cruder examples as one goes further back in time - just less of them were preserved.

I can see how the crude work on the blade can suggest a 20th century origin, but I am not sure it necessarily is a relatively new sword. It may be a crude, early version that for whatever reason made it to this day. The similarity to a yataghan to me is most intriguing and is the reason why I am not willing to write this off as a relatively moddern oddity.

To me, this looks like a very funtional blade, and actually much more functional than the longer versions of the flyssa, which seem to be terribly unbalanced. This particular one, on the other hand, would make a very nice chopper, just like shorter yataghans. It just seems too functional if you will for a 20th century piece, assuming that by this time, flyssas had lost their importance as weapons and were more of status symbols, as you point out.

Just a different perspective.

Best regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Teodor,
Very well made points, and certainly well placed, as always consistant with your keen observations. What you say is indeed compelling, but it seems we are somewhat at odds in our perspectives, and its always good to review what we know on these interesting swords.

The flyssa is one of the number of anomalies in the world of swords, which seems to be a relative newcomer. As mentioned, it is first noted by this term in a 1827 emissary's record, but we cannot be sure of the exact style or appearance of the sword itself. We know that by the 1850's it had taken the familiar form with the strange 'camel' ? head, the geometric designs and linear 'fibula' arrangements along the blade back. This decorative motif seems to have been relatively consistant, with the triangular fibula patterns and other geometric design in the hilt as well as on the blade and scabbard.

There have been suggestions that the flyssa evolved from Meditteranean swords of form from ancient times, typically the machaira. The problem with this theory is there is no developmental chronology or line of prototype or transitional weapons, at least that I am aware of. There has been a great deal of agreement that the earlier form of Turkish yataghan of the blade form of 16th century (Suleyman) may well have inflenced the blade profile. These were essentially straight back with recurve and deep belly on the blade edge.
Obviously there is a disparity of about a century or two, but these type 'yataghans' seem to have remained in service for a very long time, not at all unusual for traditional weapons.

Then there is the question of the mail piercing needle point blade, which seems characteristic on these long sword blades of mid 19th century. This particular feature seems to correspond to most probably Caucasian, then Transcaucasian influence as these type blades are known on 17th century Tatar sabres (ordynka) and seem to have developed in the 19th century on the (dare I say it) Black Sea yataghans from Anatolian regions.

The Ottoman Empire relied greatly on conscripts from Caucasian regions, and it is well known that their forces often had elements of various ethnic groups from these regions. It does not seem unlikely that these blade features may well have become amalgamated in what became the flyssa, produced by the skilled armourers of the Iflysen tribes of Berbers.

I am wondering if this is a prototype or transitional weapon, which led to the development of the very decorative and distinctly styled flyssa most commonly found in collections, why would the stylized hilt seem to be a vestigial interpretation of the 'camel head'? The fibular motif also seems to be a reflective interpretation of that seen on regular flyssas with more of a temporal expression than defined image of key apotropaic devices.

This does seem very much a functional, well balanced blade, which would make the earlier attribution seem quite reasonable, but my questions are with the interpretive and vestigial nature of the decoration and hilt. I would point out that in North Africa, swords remain very much in use into present times.
There was considerable rebellion and warfare against French dominion in these regions in the 1960's including Kabylia. Perhaps a sword made carrying traditional style would have been quite important to a participating warrior?

Different perspectives yes, but these are the things I am thinking of, and again, whatever the case, it is a wonderful example to be proud of.

All best regards,
Jim

[chregu]

many thanks for all the interesting contributions.
I personally think the blade to be older than early 20th century
it is perfectly forged and balanced.
gruss Chregu

[Lew]

Hi All

I tend to think this piece is circa 1885-1900 the hilt is wood and could have been covered in brass that was possibly removed. As in past threads I believe we touched on a point where younger warriors started out with flyssa but yearned for a well made yataghan as more of a status weapon. The flyssa that we see here seems to be a cross between the two. It looks Tribally made and not of the finer workmanship seen on older pieces. Still it seems like a good piece to me worthy of being any collection. Remember not all young warriors from that time had money to spend on a higher class flyssa or yataghan and needed to go to the local village sword maker or an apprentice to purchase his weapon.

Lew

[Jim McDougall]

Very astutely observed Lew

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would point out that in North Africa, swords remain very much in use into present times.
There was considerable rebellion and warfare against French dominion in these regions in the 1960's including Kabylia. Perhaps a sword made carrying traditional style would have been quite important to a participating warrior?

Hi Jim
believe me, I'm really sorry if I play spoilsport
but at more than one title I should like to clarified your ideas

In Algeria, dated 1859, the ban on arms trade was effective,
After the "revolt" of 1871, which actively participated Ifïlissen (Kabyle tribe men blacksmith, and "flissa" manufacturers), they were heavily taxed.
Away from the main lines of communication, their industry collapsed.
The swords could not withstand competition guns and gunsmiths had neither the time nor the opportunity to embrace this new technology.

Also, as former fighter during Algeria war (1960/61) I never saw, even heard that some one has collected a "flissa" from rebels

then, I spent 6 years in Algeria those last years, without saw a single one,
my staff mainly 70% of them was Kabyles, never tell me that, it was remaining "flissa" in their homes
my Tagui guys offered me, some "takoubas épées" ... beautiful for them, but just good for tourists
my position of GM with over than 750 staffs was the best to collect if any available
unfortunatly NOTHING remained on spot, every thing have being transfered since the beginning of the 20th to abroad

I realize that I closed doors, and I don't bring more informations, I apologize

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dom,
This is absolutely outstanding information Dom!! Please dont apologize, this is exactly the kind of valuable input I have always hoped for in these discussions, actual firsthand observations.
My comments were of course based on speculation from notes through the years and examples seen, but without direct information such as you have provided here.
I still believe that these rather unusual variations occurred later in the 19th century, and the rough execution of the motif suggests somewhat less than skilled work on many of them. The note that confirms the collapse of the well established sword making industry in Kabylia after 1871 confirms the note by Lacoste that there was dramatic decrease in quality in these weapons by that time (paraphrased from conversations with Louis Pierre Cavaille).

Thank you so much for adding this Dom, and as always for your valuable contributions in these discussions. My notes are amended accordingly

All the very best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hello Chregu,

Nice flyssa. Could you post some pictures from the side, showing the spine of the blade? It looks like the blade might have been shortened in the past. The decoration on the face of the blade goes almost to the point in an uncharacteristic manner.
Also could you show the hilt from the side? I can't see any sign of small tacks or nails that would have held brass sheet on the hilt.

Regards,
Emanuel