Peruvian/Inca war club?

stekemest · 8th May 2015, 08:28 PM

Hi all,

Got this bronze club (diameter ~ 95 mm) which I believe to be an Inca porra or mace head. Can anyone confirm? Is there reason to believe it's not authentic? Hard to say from pictures, I know.

Thanks in advance!

Shakethetrees · 8th May 2015, 08:36 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any Meso-American culture used bronze weapons.

I think the mace head is old world in origin.

stekemest · 8th May 2015, 08:53 PM

Thanks for your answer, but I think you are wrong. Some mesoamerican cultures used bronze for weapons and tools. There are some maceheads on display in the cusco museum, for example:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...f=57&p=1649011

As far as I have read, star-shaped maceheads are called "porra". Guaman Poma has depicted them in his chronicle in 1615:

fearn · 8th May 2015, 10:36 PM

The bronze isn't a problem, because the Andes had bronze since around the 10th century IIRC. I'd be more concerned about things like the relative lack of patina and the clean break on one of the spikes. I'd also be concerned about the provenance, although I'm not familiar with Bolivian and Peruvian antiquities laws.

F

VANDOO · 9th May 2015, 01:45 AM

I SEE THESE BRONZE AND COPPER MACE HEADS FOR SALE IN AUCTION HOUSES FROM TIME TO TIME. THEY ARE NOT COMMON BUT DO COME IN DIFFERENT SHAPES AND SIZES AND FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES. I DON'T KNOW IF REPLICAS HAVE BEEN MADE OR NOT. BUT SINCE YOU DON'T SEE LOTS OF THEM LIKE THE POPULAR LURISTAN AND CHINESE BRONZE ITEMS PERHAPS THE ODDS ARE BETTER OF GETTING A REAL ARTIFACT. THERE MAY BE A OLD POST WITH PICTURES OF SOME PERHAPS A SEARCH OF PRECOLUMBIAN, MACE OR BRONZE MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. GOOD LUCK

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 02:06 AM

Thank you!
I did find a thread with a few similar weapons, here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=743

Quote:

the clean break on one of the spikes

Why do you think the clean break could be a problem?

fearn · 9th May 2015, 05:48 AM

How did the break happen? It's not like the Inka or their predecessors had saws, and there's no sign of crystallization. They weren't clumsy metal-smiths, so I doubt it was a bad casting. Was it cut off for some reason, accidentally destroyed by a looter's pick? It's a troubling inconsistency.

F

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2015, 10:23 AM

It looks like the piece was cast from a form as it is. The spike has not been cut or broken off after casting. The patina does not bother me. Grave goods are dug up from certain environments in almost mint condition. The size looks correct to examples I have seen and have pictures of. Why it has a truncated spike is bit of a mystery. Perhaps it alters the striking properties? perhaps it is currency or offering? Is it a fake? seems odd to fake a mace head this way. If I were to fake a mace head I would have all the spikes or damage one spike to fake age and usage. I know there is fake pottery, reproduction pottery and new ancient pottery made in Peru for tourists. There could well be reproduction bronze castings. Without real provenance only metal testing will be conclusive as to whether it is genuine. When I visit museums that have Peruvian collections I am amazed at the fineness of art objects. Pottery and textiles in wonderful condition. Can you get real ancient artifacts on ebay? I think it may be possible. I bought a Peruvian {Chimu} pot sold on ebay as African. What you have to keep in mind it that the Spanish conquest would not change all aspects of culture over night. It would take decades to reach every community that had craft activity. Local forms of expression in manufactures would have continued for perhaps centuries. Here is a picture of the pot I cost very little so if it is fake or repro I do not mind, but as I say it would not have to be from the 1500s to be genuine.

ashoka · 9th May 2015, 11:38 AM

Looks great to me. Patina and wear is as you would expect, at one point it has been totally cleaned chemically of all the original patina and then aquired another old one. To me it looks as if one spike was damaged a long time ago, presumably on the crest of Pizarro's helmet, and subsequently was cut off to make it look 'neater' not the first time I have seen this. Obviously a long time ago as it is not a sharp cut but worn. It appears to be made from porous cast and hammered copper which again I think is what you'd expect although it's not really my dept. Nice thing!

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 12:41 PM

Thank you all for your opinions. The metal seems to be a bit brighter where the spike is broken, so perhaps it was indeed once sawed off.
Is there any person/insitution where it could be appraised first-hand (and not too expensively so?). It is certainly not worth a lot, even if real, but I love everything pre-columbian and this piece just feels "good".

ashoka · 9th May 2015, 12:52 PM

There are many in museums, but your best bet is probably just comparing them to ones online, and in good museum collections. I see no reason at all to think there is anything doubtful about it. The fact that it is cast copper speaks volumes, and the aged marks/surface on it is pretty evident. Apparantly they made them out of many materials, stone, metal even gold. A holiday to Peru and visit to the relevant authorities in the National Museum should confirm

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 01:03 PM

Quote:

A holiday to Peru and visit to the relevant authorities in the National Museum should confirm

Not cheap from Germany to Peru.

Thank you very much.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2015, 01:18 PM

It may have been so porous at the time of casting that it was finished this way? There does not seem to be any signs of cutting with a metal saw or mechanical grinding? In the past collectors have been vandals it is possible that somebody cut the spike off so it would stand on edge?

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 01:21 PM

I will try to make better pictures of the broken part.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2015, 01:50 PM

Hamburg has a great collection of Peruvian art.

ashoka · 9th May 2015, 02:32 PM

Interesting but slightly irrelevant to focus on what tool has cut off the point, it's clearly been cut off, you can see the burr along the edge, presumably some very sharp knife or tool. It also looks to me from the photos as if the same cut appears to have taken off a sliver off the side tip of another spike when it was done, in the same alignment. Copper is very soft especially with this amount of porosity, you could probably cut through it with a kitchen knife. You can also see the wear marks on the surface go up to and beyond the cut so this has tidied up after it's life usage,maybe by the same hooligan who soaked it in vinegar or something to remove the green patination. It's interesting to see the cross section of one of these actually and how porous it was, hammering and working the surface would have the double effect of creating a solid surface and also work-hardening the copper to make it harder, an effect utilised by man on tools and weapons since the copper/bronze age. Also looks like once it had been cleaned it was varnished, this was commonly done to ancient bronze stuff by museums and collectors in the 19th century, at least in the UK, so I'm guessing that was when it was done

Quote:

Originally Posted by stekemest

I will try to make better pictures of the broken part.

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 05:14 PM

Here are two more pictures. I have uploaded them externally so that I can show them in maximum size.
On the interior there seems to be a bit more patina, but it was tough to photograph.

As hot links are not allowed on this forum I have deleted and replaced them THIS TIME in the proper manner. Please read the forum rules on the posting of photos.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2015, 05:19 PM

Well that looks like vandalism to me. Must be done so it can stand on edge.

ashoka · 9th May 2015, 05:26 PM

maybe if you wait long enough it'll grow back, like a starfish..

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 05:32 PM

lol.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2015, 06:13 PM

Just an add on to an interesting subject.

http://aliciapatterson.org/stories/l...estroying-past

stekemest · 9th May 2015, 07:50 PM

I have to say that I bought this object (very cheaply) from a collector I personally know, who said he himself obtained it from an antiques dealer in Europe. Don't know where it originall comes from, but it must have been around in Europe for some time.

Quote:

Well that looks like vandalism to me. Must be done so it can stand on edge.

I think you are right. I have just noticed that not only the broken spike is ground off, but also the end of one of the intact spikes. You can see it on the picture. Bad vandalism, but that at least betters its chances of being an original.

Thank you all for your help.

VANDOO · 10th May 2015, 08:34 AM

TWO POSSIBILITY'S OTHER THAN MORE RECENT VANDALISM. #. IT COULD HAVE BEEN CAST THIS WAY FOR USE AS A HAMMER. OR MADE THIS WAY SO YOU COULD STRIKE A ENEMY AND NOT KILL BUT STUN FOR USE AS A SACRIFICE OR SLAVE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF PATINA WOULD FORM ON BRONZE OR COPPER WITHOUT KNOWING THE CONDITIONS THIS WAS FOUND IN BASED ON EXAMPLES AS FOUND IN SITU.

stekemest · 10th May 2015, 11:55 AM

That's right, but in view of the manipulations on one of the intact spikes (last picture), I think it is more likely that it was done so that it can stand on edge, which it perfectly does. The patina was probably removed by the same guy.

ashoka · 10th May 2015, 12:07 PM

indeed..

8th May 2015, 08:28 PM	#1
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Peruvian/Inca war club? Hi all, Got this bronze club (diameter ~ 95 mm) which I believe to be an Inca porra or mace head. Can anyone confirm? Is there reason to believe it's not authentic? Hard to say from pictures, I know. Thanks in advance! Attached Images

9th May 2015, 10:23 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It looks like the piece was cast from a form as it is. The spike has not been cut or broken off after casting. The patina does not bother me. Grave goods are dug up from certain environments in almost mint condition. The size looks correct to examples I have seen and have pictures of. Why it has a truncated spike is bit of a mystery. Perhaps it alters the striking properties? perhaps it is currency or offering? Is it a fake? seems odd to fake a mace head this way. If I were to fake a mace head I would have all the spikes or damage one spike to fake age and usage. I know there is fake pottery, reproduction pottery and new ancient pottery made in Peru for tourists. There could well be reproduction bronze castings. Without real provenance only metal testing will be conclusive as to whether it is genuine. When I visit museums that have Peruvian collections I am amazed at the fineness of art objects. Pottery and textiles in wonderful condition. Can you get real ancient artifacts on ebay? I think it may be possible. I bought a Peruvian {Chimu} pot sold on ebay as African. What you have to keep in mind it that the Spanish conquest would not change all aspects of culture over night. It would take decades to reach every community that had craft activity. Local forms of expression in manufactures would have continued for perhaps centuries. Here is a picture of the pot I cost very little so if it is fake or repro I do not mind, but as I say it would not have to be from the 1500s to be genuine. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th May 2015 at 10:41 AM.

9th May 2015, 11:38 AM	#9
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	Looks great to me. Patina and wear is as you would expect, at one point it has been totally cleaned chemically of all the original patina and then aquired another old one. To me it looks as if one spike was damaged a long time ago, presumably on the crest of Pizarro's helmet, and subsequently was cut off to make it look 'neater' not the first time I have seen this. Obviously a long time ago as it is not a sharp cut but worn. It appears to be made from porous cast and hammered copper which again I think is what you'd expect although it's not really my dept. Nice thing! Last edited by ashoka; 9th May 2015 at 12:46 PM.

9th May 2015, 01:18 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It may have been so porous at the time of casting that it was finished this way? There does not seem to be any signs of cutting with a metal saw or mechanical grinding? In the past collectors have been vandals it is possible that somebody cut the spike off so it would stand on edge? Attached Images

9th May 2015, 05:14 PM	#17
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Here are two more pictures. I have uploaded them externally so that I can show them in maximum size. On the interior there seems to be a bit more patina, but it was tough to photograph. As hot links are not allowed on this forum I have deleted and replaced them THIS TIME in the proper manner. Please read the forum rules on the posting of photos. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 9th May 2015 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Hot links are no allowed on the forum. Please post your photos directly to the forum.

8th May 2015, 08:36 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any Meso-American culture used bronze weapons. I think the mace head is old world in origin.

8th May 2015, 08:53 PM	#3
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Thanks for your answer, but I think you are wrong. Some mesoamerican cultures used bronze for weapons and tools. There are some maceheads on display in the cusco museum, for example: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...f=57&p=1649011 As far as I have read, star-shaped maceheads are called "porra". Guaman Poma has depicted them in his chronicle in 1615:

8th May 2015, 10:36 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	The bronze isn't a problem, because the Andes had bronze since around the 10th century IIRC. I'd be more concerned about things like the relative lack of patina and the clean break on one of the spikes. I'd also be concerned about the provenance, although I'm not familiar with Bolivian and Peruvian antiquities laws. F

9th May 2015, 01:45 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I SEE THESE BRONZE AND COPPER MACE HEADS FOR SALE IN AUCTION HOUSES FROM TIME TO TIME. THEY ARE NOT COMMON BUT DO COME IN DIFFERENT SHAPES AND SIZES AND FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES. I DON'T KNOW IF REPLICAS HAVE BEEN MADE OR NOT. BUT SINCE YOU DON'T SEE LOTS OF THEM LIKE THE POPULAR LURISTAN AND CHINESE BRONZE ITEMS PERHAPS THE ODDS ARE BETTER OF GETTING A REAL ARTIFACT. THERE MAY BE A OLD POST WITH PICTURES OF SOME PERHAPS A SEARCH OF PRECOLUMBIAN, MACE OR BRONZE MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. GOOD LUCK

9th May 2015, 05:48 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	How did the break happen? It's not like the Inka or their predecessors had saws, and there's no sign of crystallization. They weren't clumsy metal-smiths, so I doubt it was a bad casting. Was it cut off for some reason, accidentally destroyed by a looter's pick? It's a troubling inconsistency. F

9th May 2015, 12:41 PM	#10
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Thank you all for your opinions. The metal seems to be a bit brighter where the spike is broken, so perhaps it was indeed once sawed off. Is there any person/insitution where it could be appraised first-hand (and not too expensively so?). It is certainly not worth a lot, even if real, but I love everything pre-columbian and this piece just feels "good".

9th May 2015, 12:52 PM	#11
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	There are many in museums, but your best bet is probably just comparing them to ones online, and in good museum collections. I see no reason at all to think there is anything doubtful about it. The fact that it is cast copper speaks volumes, and the aged marks/surface on it is pretty evident. Apparantly they made them out of many materials, stone, metal even gold. A holiday to Peru and visit to the relevant authorities in the National Museum should confirm

9th May 2015, 01:21 PM	#14
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	I will try to make better pictures of the broken part.

9th May 2015, 01:50 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hamburg has a great collection of Peruvian art.

9th May 2015, 05:19 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well that looks like vandalism to me. Must be done so it can stand on edge.

9th May 2015, 05:26 PM	#19
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	maybe if you wait long enough it'll grow back, like a starfish..

9th May 2015, 05:32 PM	#20
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	lol.

9th May 2015, 06:13 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	"It's hard to sell ceramics these days. Too much of it is on the market Just an add on to an interesting subject. http://aliciapatterson.org/stories/l...estroying-past

10th May 2015, 08:34 AM	#23
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TWO POSSIBILITY'S OTHER THAN MORE RECENT VANDALISM. #. IT COULD HAVE BEEN CAST THIS WAY FOR USE AS A HAMMER. OR MADE THIS WAY SO YOU COULD STRIKE A ENEMY AND NOT KILL BUT STUN FOR USE AS A SACRIFICE OR SLAVE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF PATINA WOULD FORM ON BRONZE OR COPPER WITHOUT KNOWING THE CONDITIONS THIS WAS FOUND IN BASED ON EXAMPLES AS FOUND IN SITU.

10th May 2015, 11:55 AM	#24
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	That's right, but in view of the manipulations on one of the intact spikes (last picture), I think it is more likely that it was done so that it can stand on edge, which it perfectly does. The patina was probably removed by the same guy.

10th May 2015, 12:07 PM	#25
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	indeed..