A rapier for Christmas

fernando · 5th December 2010, 05:47 PM

Always an added value when a sword is marked ... and signed.

This time by Gonzalo Simon, a Toledo sword maker from the early XVII century.
He figures in number #35 of Palomar's nomina:
See here post #152
Master Simon is recorded to haved lived in 1617.
There is a sword with his signature in the Real Armeria de Madrid and another one in the Wallace collection.

This one here has a 96 cms six face double edged blade, counting from the guard. Total length 118 cms. The width at the forte measures 22 mm and, with a thickness of 10 mm, it acquires the reasonable weight of 1,1120 Kg.
Point of balance 11,5 cms from the guard.
The pommel looks having never being removed; the grip wiring and the two brass turk heads look rather aged ... maybe original ?

I have tried to establish a typology for the hilt at Norman's, but i don't have enough experience to do it; anyway it looks to me like hilt #61 and inner hilt #35, with exception for the turned quillons.

According to the seller this sword was brought from the United States; go figure why it was kept there.
I will be much obliged for any coments on this piece.

.

celtan · 6th December 2010, 01:08 AM

Im green with envy...

Enjoy & Hearty Congrats! You probably did something good this past year, Santa only brings me coal...

M

Chris Evans · 6th December 2010, 10:53 AM

Hi Fernando,

What a wonderful piece - Thank you for sharing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

...Point of balance 11,5 cms from the guard.

By guard, do you mean from the quillons, or where the loops end and the naked blade commences?

Any evidence of sharpening and if so, and if so, onwhich part of the blade?

Cheers
Chris

Matchlock · 6th December 2010, 04:48 PM

Great find, 'Nando,

And in perfect patina as well!

Best,
Michl

fernando · 6th December 2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Im green with envy...

Enjoy & Hearty Congrats! You probably did something good this past year, Santa only brings me coal...

M

How much coal ?
Maybe we can do business

fernando · 6th December 2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...What a wonderful piece - Thank you for sharing! ...

Thank you for your precious opinion, Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...By guard, do you mean from the quillons, or where the loops end and the naked blade commences? ...

Measurement taken as from where the loops end. 7 more centimeters (ricasso) to the quillons.
The point of balance was also measured from the loops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Any evidence of sharpening and if so, and if so, on which part of the blade? ...

Let me see if i got you; there are edges starting right from the ricasso, with practically the same angle of (soft) acuteness ... nothing to cut one's hands.
... and no sign of having been (re) sharpened done during its life.

.

fernando · 6th December 2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Great find, 'Nando,

Thanks Michl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

And in perfect patina as well!

... And now already with a treatment of olive oil

.

Chris Evans · 7th December 2010, 08:51 AM

Hi Fernando,

Much appreciated your reply.

Cheers
Chris

Norman McCormick · 7th December 2010, 07:19 PM

Hi Fernando,
A real 'Christmas Cracker, you must have been have been extra 'good' this year. I'll just have to be satisfied with my wife's long legs in Christmas stockings this year, oh well "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do".

A really nice piece, the sword I mean.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

celtan · 7th December 2010, 07:27 PM

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
A real 'Christmas Cracker, you must have been have been extra 'good' this year. I'll just have to be satisfied with my wife's long legs in Christmas stockings this year, oh well "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do".

A really nice piece, the sword I mean.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 7th December 2010, 07:38 PM

Thank you Norman.
It's not a question of being good, but that of taking serious risks. For as much as i try and mix the new acquisitions with the existing ones, she always finds them out and claims for compensation, like buying new shoes or clothes.
So when i acquire a new piece i usualy calculate its price on a double basis

celtan · 7th December 2010, 07:50 PM

: ) : ) : ) : ) : )

Tell me about it. Mine saw yesterday my latest toys. She found my home office unlocked and came in: Couldn't hide a Napoleonic 2nd Emp Cuirass + 2 helmets amongst my swords .

Surprisingly, she liked them! But her bill will come soon...

Ces't la vie.

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Norman.
It's not a question of being good, but that of taking serious risks. For as much as i try and mix the new acquisitions with the existing ones, she always finds them out and claims for compensation, like buying new shoes or clothes.
So when i acquire a new piece i usualy calculate its price on a double basis

Norman McCormick · 7th December 2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

she always finds them out and claims for compensation, like buying new shoes or clothes.

Fernando and Manolo,
"It's the same the whole world over"!!!!

Marc · 9th December 2010, 03:43 PM

It's a truly fantastic piece, Fernando. Thanks for sharing it.
I join the growing ranks of the envious...

fernando · 9th December 2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

It's a truly fantastic piece, Fernando. Thanks for sharing it.
I join the growing ranks of the envious...

Moltes gràcies per les amables paraules, meu amic

celtan · 9th December 2010, 06:35 PM

Hablen en cristiano!

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Moltes gràcies per les amables paraules, meu amic

fernando · 9th December 2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hablen en cristiano! : )

Marc · 10th December 2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hablen en cristiano!

: )

You know, I've seen pretty serious fights being started by these very words*...

Well, ready your weapons, Sir! Fernando, pass me that rapier! I have to... er... defend my honour!

Now the question is... can I run away with it faster than a harquebut bullet?

* Just because this is kind of an inside (one could even say "ethnographic", now that I think about it…

) joke, and need some knowledge of a certain cultural framework to be truly understood, I prefer to err on the caution side and say this: although what I just wrote is nothing but true, I’m just joking. There’s nothing but animus iocandi at play, here.

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2010, 06:18 PM

Guys, Im really not a scrooge so I hope I can add some comments about the sword without breaking the Christmas spirit

no groans OK?

Im too lazy to try to excavate the Norman book here in the bus, and you already have it Nando, but I did find some interesting help in Wagner regarding the pommel, which seems to intrigue me the most on this fantastic rapier. The fact that it is clearly marked for Gonzalo Simon c. 1617 in Toledo of course pretty much rests the case for the sword, but you were trying to type the pommel.

These type of pommels in thier basic shape were apparantly well known in Italy around the end of the 16th century, and seem to have influenced makers such as the Aiala's of Barcelona and Toledo (I believe Luis was son of Tomas and lived around 1566-1620, but Wagners wording is unclear p.173).
In any case they adopted the words JESUS MARIA , which was commonly used by Milanese armourers.
The reason I note that is that the faceted or grooved effect seems to have been in place with thier sword pommels around the early 17th century, and some German pommels of this time used the effect as well. Germany and Italy were key centers in arms fashion in these times, and were in many cases it seems pace setters in designs, particularly Italy it seems.

The interesting marking at the fuller terminus is of course the 'anchor' which is a device strongly favored in Spain in this application. It's symbolism is of course Christian in representation of the cross, and seems to have developed into a kind of 'sigil' in various instances with varying number of patibulum, and systems of punched lozenges among them. It seems this one corresponds in some ways with some attributed I believe to Perez, but cannot find my notes.

OK, enough of my drollery, I just wanted to add those notes to see if they might apply (your comments plz Marc) ....so pass me an eggnog and back to the frivolity

!! But no duelling you guys......I have no idea what the words you guys are talking about mean in context, but be careful.

All the best guys and Happy Holidays!!!!

J.

***NNR****

fernando · 12th December 2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....so pass me an eggnog and back to the frivolity

!! But no duelling you guys...

Sorry to say, Jim cowboy, but there are no things like eggnogs in this side of the pond

.
If you were closer, i would send you one of these "rabanadas" that my mum used to do and handed over the secret to my wife

.
One thing is sure; i wouldn't submit one of those to a "taste test" between Catalunians and Puerto Ricans; then you would see what a duel is about

.
Apart from that, no quarrels in my threads ... definitely

I love you guys

.

.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2010, 06:51 PM

Beautifully said Nando!! and back atcha!!!

What the heck is a rabanada???? and no clue what a dwell is.
Actually I'd be afraid to think what cowboys out here would put into an egg nog if they ever had such a thing

Whatever it would be most likely would have an octane rating though.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 13th December 2010, 07:31 PM

Ah ah ah .
Oh Jim, i can't avoid laughing with my unwanted mistracking

... while i stand on my knees

I meant duel ... the mispelling completely drove you off

.
A rabanada is a local Christmas ex-libris. It is no drink, but a delicious dainty made with slices of (two days dried) bread, fried with tons of egg yolk and sugar, cinnamon and lemon scraping. You may add some honey or Port whine; not much octane though ... but i loved your guessing

celtan · 13th December 2010, 07:54 PM

Oh, you mean a "rebanada" (slice)...

Geez, you portuguese can't speak cristiano worth-a-darn. For a time I was trying to imagine some sort of bizarre local pastry made from rabanos (radish)...

: )

Now seriously, a rabanada sounds awfully similar to a "torreja". But when you add Oporto, it must taste much, much better. In fact, my mouth is actually watering at the thought...

And Jim, we may not have egnogg, but we have "queimadas",which is a vast improvement on the theme.

Merry Xmas to all ! (or in cristiano: "Feliz Navidad")

: )

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ah ah .
Oh Jim, i can't avoid laughing with my unwanted mistracking

... while i stand on my knees

I meant duel ... the mispelling completely drove you off

.
A rabanada is a local Christmas ex-libris. It is no drink, but a delicious dainty made with slices of (two days dried) bread, fried with tons of egg yolk and sugar, cinnamon and lemon scraping. You may add some honey or Port whine; not much octane though ... but i loved your guessing

celtan · 14th December 2010, 03:42 AM

Oopsies!

Jim, seems I inadvertently cross posted with the blade shape thread. Would you kindly relocate these posts to the correct thread?

Best regards

M

fernando · 14th December 2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... Oopsies!
Jim, seems I inadvertently cross posted with the blade shape thread. Would you kindly relocate these posts to the correct thread?
Best regards
M

Done; not thoroughly ... but done

.

Trond · 23rd January 2011, 07:03 PM

New member of the forum here. I'm mainly into Norwegian Small-Arms and blades, but also have some rapiers, schiavonas etc. One of my rapiers seems very alike the really nice one you are showing, but I have always believed mine to be a German hilted Toledo blade from the mid 1600s. The stamp on the blade is a crowned F.

Any more information on it would be appreciated.

Trond

fernando · 23rd January 2011, 08:15 PM

Hi Trond
Welcome to the forum.

First of all, it would be so nice if you decided to show us some more pieces of your collection; be sure they will be much appreciated by our fellow members.

Great rapier you show us here.
What gives you the impression that it is German hilted ?
In any case, your sword is similar to mine, but not precisely equal; the quillons, above all, show somehow a different attitude. I am not a specialist, but the visible differences could reveal to an expert a different country of provenance.
A pity that the pictures, although very clear, do not show us details like the inscription in the blade and the maker's mark on the ricasso.
There are quite a few Spanish sword smiths who signed with a crowned crowned F, as can be seen here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0789#post90789
You can try and establish in that listing which crowned F is in your sword, but it would be also most interesting if you post here some close up pictures of both mark and inscription.

Trond · 23rd January 2011, 09:13 PM

Here is the crowned F from the blade:

The text on the blade seems to be the same on both sides, but is difficult to read:

Trond

fernando · 23rd January 2011, 10:17 PM

This would be the mark of Francisco Perez, listed as #33 in Palomar's nomina of Toledo sword smiths (see the posted link).
The inscription in the blade reads FRANCISCO PEREZ FECIT IN TOLEDO.
I just don't like the 'fecit' (made ((it)) mention; usually more used by German sword makers, i guess.
We know German and Spanish smiths kept copying one eachother.
Let's see what other members say about this.

10th December 2010, 06:18 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Guys, Im really not a scrooge so I hope I can add some comments about the sword without breaking the Christmas spirit no groans OK? Im too lazy to try to excavate the Norman book here in the bus, and you already have it Nando, but I did find some interesting help in Wagner regarding the pommel, which seems to intrigue me the most on this fantastic rapier. The fact that it is clearly marked for Gonzalo Simon c. 1617 in Toledo of course pretty much rests the case for the sword, but you were trying to type the pommel. These type of pommels in thier basic shape were apparantly well known in Italy around the end of the 16th century, and seem to have influenced makers such as the Aiala's of Barcelona and Toledo (I believe Luis was son of Tomas and lived around 1566-1620, but Wagners wording is unclear p.173). In any case they adopted the words JESUS MARIA , which was commonly used by Milanese armourers. The reason I note that is that the faceted or grooved effect seems to have been in place with thier sword pommels around the early 17th century, and some German pommels of this time used the effect as well. Germany and Italy were key centers in arms fashion in these times, and were in many cases it seems pace setters in designs, particularly Italy it seems. The interesting marking at the fuller terminus is of course the 'anchor' which is a device strongly favored in Spain in this application. It's symbolism is of course Christian in representation of the cross, and seems to have developed into a kind of 'sigil' in various instances with varying number of patibulum, and systems of punched lozenges among them. It seems this one corresponds in some ways with some attributed I believe to Perez, but cannot find my notes. OK, enough of my drollery, I just wanted to add those notes to see if they might apply (your comments plz Marc) ....so pass me an eggnog and back to the frivolity !! But no duelling you guys......I have no idea what the words you guys are talking about mean in context, but be careful. All the best guys and Happy Holidays!!!! J. *NNR** Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th December 2010 at 02:16 AM.

5th December 2010, 05:47 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A rapier for Christmas Always an added value when a sword is marked ... and signed. This time by Gonzalo Simon, a Toledo sword maker from the early XVII century. He figures in number #35 of Palomar's nomina: See here post #152 Master Simon is recorded to haved lived in 1617. There is a sword with his signature in the Real Armeria de Madrid and another one in the Wallace collection. This one here has a 96 cms six face double edged blade, counting from the guard. Total length 118 cms. The width at the forte measures 22 mm and, with a thickness of 10 mm, it acquires the reasonable weight of 1,1120 Kg. Point of balance 11,5 cms from the guard. The pommel looks having never being removed; the grip wiring and the two brass turk heads look rather aged ... maybe original ? I have tried to establish a typology for the hilt at Norman's, but i don't have enough experience to do it; anyway it looks to me like hilt #61 and inner hilt #35, with exception for the turned quillons. According to the seller this sword was brought from the United States; go figure why it was kept there. I will be much obliged for any coments on this piece. . Attached Images

6th December 2010, 01:08 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Im green with envy... Enjoy & Hearty Congrats! You probably did something good this past year, Santa only brings me coal... M

6th December 2010, 04:48 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Great find, 'Nando, And in perfect patina as well! Best, Michl

7th December 2010, 08:51 AM	#8
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	Hi Fernando, Much appreciated your reply. Cheers Chris

7th December 2010, 07:19 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Fernando, A real 'Christmas Cracker, you must have been have been extra 'good' this year. I'll just have to be satisfied with my wife's long legs in Christmas stockings this year, oh well "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do". A really nice piece, the sword I mean. Kind Regards, Norman.

7th December 2010, 07:38 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Norman. It's not a question of being good, but that of taking serious risks. For as much as i try and mix the new acquisitions with the existing ones, she always finds them out and claims for compensation, like buying new shoes or clothes. So when i acquire a new piece i usualy calculate its price on a double basis

9th December 2010, 03:43 PM	#14
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	It's a truly fantastic piece, Fernando. Thanks for sharing it. I join the growing ranks of the envious...

13th December 2010, 06:51 PM	#21
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Beautifully said Nando!! and back atcha!!! What the heck is a rabanada???? and no clue what a dwell is. Actually I'd be afraid to think what cowboys out here would put into an egg nog if they ever had such a thing Whatever it would be most likely would have an octane rating though. All the best, Jim

13th December 2010, 07:31 PM	#22
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ah ah ah . Oh Jim, i can't avoid laughing with my unwanted mistracking ... while i stand on my knees I meant duel ... the mispelling completely drove you off . A rabanada is a local Christmas ex-libris. It is no drink, but a delicious dainty made with slices of (two days dried) bread, fried with tons of egg yolk and sugar, cinnamon and lemon scraping. You may add some honey or Port whine; not much octane though ... but i loved your guessing

14th December 2010, 03:42 AM	#24
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Oopsies! Jim, seems I inadvertently cross posted with the blade shape thread. Would you kindly relocate these posts to the correct thread? Best regards M

23rd January 2011, 07:03 PM	#26
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	New member of the forum here. I'm mainly into Norwegian Small-Arms and blades, but also have some rapiers, schiavonas etc. One of my rapiers seems very alike the really nice one you are showing, but I have always believed mine to be a German hilted Toledo blade from the mid 1600s. The stamp on the blade is a crowned F. Any more information on it would be appreciated. Trond

23rd January 2011, 08:15 PM	#27
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Trond Welcome to the forum. First of all, it would be so nice if you decided to show us some more pieces of your collection; be sure they will be much appreciated by our fellow members. Great rapier you show us here. What gives you the impression that it is German hilted ? In any case, your sword is similar to mine, but not precisely equal; the quillons, above all, show somehow a different attitude. I am not a specialist, but the visible differences could reveal to an expert a different country of provenance. A pity that the pictures, although very clear, do not show us details like the inscription in the blade and the maker's mark on the ricasso. There are quite a few Spanish sword smiths who signed with a crowned crowned F, as can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0789#post90789 You can try and establish in that listing which crowned F is in your sword, but it would be also most interesting if you post here some close up pictures of both mark and inscription.

23rd January 2011, 09:13 PM	#28
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	Here is the crowned F from the blade: The text on the blade seems to be the same on both sides, but is difficult to read: Trond

23rd January 2011, 10:17 PM	#29
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This would be the mark of Francisco Perez, listed as #33 in Palomar's nomina of Toledo sword smiths (see the posted link). The inscription in the blade reads FRANCISCO PEREZ FECIT IN TOLEDO. I just don't like the 'fecit' (made ((it)) mention; usually more used by German sword makers, i guess. We know German and Spanish smiths kept copying one eachother. Let's see what other members say about this.