Berber Cavalry Saber ??

[archer]

Appears to be an unmarked, or copy of a British 1796 cavalry saber, is it?
The 29 inch blade looks like a huge old fashioned straight razor. If it is as it appears a fairly scarce item with a sheath with an intacked toe. Sheath has a wood insert on one side only, seems odd. Horn?? layered grips have a break across the bottom of the grip. Any information will be helpful. Thanks, Steve

[RhysMichael]

Interesting sword that has been the subject of a great deal of talk here in the past. Most common attribution I have seen is Berber but I have seen others talk of them as Morrocan, Spanish colonial, Carribean, and Mexican or south American. Jim I am sure will be able to offer some insight when he sees this

[kahnjar1]

Hi Steve,
Another interesting piece. My pick would be Algeria, based only on the hilt decoration. Many Khodmi knives from that area have similar decoration.
The blade could have originated almost anywhere. It could be an original European blade or a locally made copy.
Nice item IMHO.
Regards Stu

[TVV]

Nice sword archer.

We have indeed discussed these mysterious swords at great length in the past. To me their attribution is unclear, but I have two of them with Spanish mottos: one the standard "No me saques..." motto, the other one "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", likely referring to a particular event in the history of what is now the Dominican Republic. I am yet to see an inscription on the blade of this type of sword that is NOT in Spanish.

Therefore, to me it appears that they must have been used somewhere within the Spanish Colonial Empire. Assuming a 19th century attribution to these swords, the Spanish Empire at the time was limited to the Caribbean, the Philippines and a few areas in North-Western Africa. Maybe add a significant portion of South America and all of Central America, if they date to the very early decades of the 19th century. Of all these options, I am leaning towards Central America and the Caribbean for two main reasons:
- Charles Buttin does not include these swords in his description of weapons from the Maghreb;
- the Dominican reference on the inscription on one of my swords.

A quick search should bring the old discussion threads up.

Regards,
Teodor

P.S. 29 inches seems a bit too short for a cavalry weapon. Mine are not very long either, and I doubt these were ever intended for mounted use. But in narrow confines (such as on a ship) or in a jungle setting they seem to be just about the right size for a sidearm.

[ariel]

Teodor,
I have a classical Moroccan Nimcha with the blade marked " Nueva Granada" ( presently, - Colombia/Venezuela).
Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

[archer]

Hi, Here I was thinking another addition to Moroccan family with a rather rare sword when the sheath is complete. Now as you both have pointed out out It's worse than the mixed origins of the various Koummya styles. I'll read it all thorough, but, I need to peek at the ending has the forum found a conclusion?
This one just came in and needs a lot of oil to remove tiny raised rust spots. The right hand fuller may have very faint makers mark and maybe and armors acceptance stamp. we'll see what oil can do. Thanks, Steve

[Rick]

One thing these swords seem to share is a 'pinched tang' tapered to fit between the hilt slabs .
This would not seem to be the original configuration of these recycled blades .
The clipper-ship bow shaped point of many of these reconfigured swords seems quite un-Spanish also .

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Teodor,

Blades traveled, and surplus Spanish blades obviously found their way to the Spain-controlled N. Africa.

I completely agree with this, but while there is a variety of blades on nimchas: the Spanish one on yours, French blades, local blades, old Solingen backsword blades, etc., these allegedly Berber swords seem to be exclusively fitted with Spanish mottos, when inscriptions are present. It is a very different case from an odd trade blade or two.

I am afraid a conclusion will only be reached when we find a period photo of a warrior (or warriors) with this type of weapon. One is eventually bound to surface.

Regards,
Teodor

[ariel]

As I mentioned before, there is an oil painting in Versailles showing battle between the French and the Berbers. In in the right lower corner there is a Berber wielding exactly the same sword with clipped point. When I was there, I did not photograph it, dumbhead! Perhaps, one of our French colleagues may do us all a favor.

[archer]

After some cleaning clearer designs began to emerge. Perhaps patterns will be identifiable to an area the sheath was made. I haven't had a chance to begin looking yet. Rick I think the Pinched tang is a good start. The vague patterns in the rust, were connect the dot types, no help, the blade remains unmarked. after thought the leather work is a bit primitive, simple cuts and dye. Almost like scarification.
Regards, Steve

[Richard G]

There appear to be similarities between this sword and the knives in threads:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832
i.e.
They all display the dot in a roundel type of decoration,
They all seem to have the same "pinched" tang construction,
The scabbards show similar tooling,
I would suggest the consensus is settling on a North or North West African origin.
Regards
Richard

[archer]

This is a link about circle decorations:http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661 look at the knives sheath. It appears to have only one wooden insert, as does my swords scabbard. The circles are kind of understandable as a simple design to make.
The second link provided by Richard G shows an odd tapered tang! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832 This thread as Kanjar 1 had stated earlier pointed to Algeria and Northern Africa as a possible source of the knives. What do you think?
Oh, one more thing the odd steel shown on this knife reminds me some better quality Koummya's can have a similar odd looking steel. Regards, Steve

[archer]

This Koummya was purchased from France (E Bay) seller, said it was from North Central Morocco bordering Algeria. Note dagger with the same oddly rough textured steel.

[TVV]

The circle and dot motif is way too common to base anything on it, I am afraid: I can easily find Balkan and Central Asian examples. The sheath is much more intriguing, and its more complex decoration would probably serve us better in identifying the culture, where the sword was made.
Regards,
Teodor

[TVV]

Perhaps as to not distract from archer's nice sword, we should continue the discussion in this old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...6&page=2&pp=30

Please note on page 2 another such sword with yet another reference to the Dominican Republic.

Regards,
Teodor

[archer]

Hi Teodor, I agree the dots appear in a lot of decorations. My and Others points are that The knife in question if Algerian has too many similarities to dismiss. The tapered tang seen apparently on most if not all "Berber" Sabers. The sheaths most importantly wood lined on one side only, very unique too both the sword and knife. Here are a couple of photos from Maxwells " Lords of the Atlas" in different printings. The swords worn are not prominent but they could well be "Berber Sabers", what do you think? I have no problem with moving the thread.
I'm only interested in sabers origins and the many attributions it has gained.

[Jim McDougall]

These are truly intriguing sabres, and quite honestly we have been discussing them for it seems about 14 yrs now off and on. I think I got one of these around 1994 and at this time these were as far as I could tell pretty scarce in the collecting community. The provenance to mine was insisted as Atlas/Rif/Berber, and there were no resources to substantiate nor refute this.

Tirri came out with his book about 10 years later, and the Spanish Morocco attribution seemed sufficiently substantiated, though by this time numbers of these were becoming seen among collectors and research was well underway.

My example had the 'MANU' near hilt at forte, and as seen later, appears to be remnant of the Manuel Dega stamp seen on others later. There is no doubt that this blade is a British M1796 light cavalry blade as I once set the two together...the tip of mine is reprofiled in the curious 'boat prow' design that Rick mentioned. Quite honestly I was drawn to the Indonesian attributions based on that and some temporal association to these kinds of points on kampilans, which have also seen comparison in these discussions.

The curious hilt form is somewhat similar to the Cuban 'espada' forms which are collectively termed 'guanabacoa' from various sources and entries by former writers here. Some of these hilts have indeed on occasion been classified as Algerian, though I have seen them far more often in Latin American context. Many of these types of swords seem to have come from Spanish American war souvenier groupings and the fact that they seem to have various types of representation throughout the sphere well known as the 'Spanish Main', and from around mid to turn of the century.

The fact that these seem to have occurred in certain 'Berber' context and particularly in the Spanish colonial context, which does indeed include the regions in Morocco, does suggest that these swords may well have diffused throughout in these periods.
It is hard to say exactly where they originated, but they do seem to have a certain similarity to the Moroccan sa'if (without guard obviously) and using in many cases the British M1796 cavalry blades. These were present in Spain in some volume after the Napoleonic period, and as surplus probably entered the trade networks. The names stamped in period character at the spine near hilt (one shown is BREFFIT'. and I have another ISAAC) suggests this as well.

The protrusion on the scabbard tip has been suggested to hold as the sword is drawn from the scabbard. While this seems uncharacteristic, I think it may be considered in the case of Central American climate and 'machete' type use, moisture may impede withdrawal in leather scabbard perhaps?

It would seem to me that these guardless sabres may have originated in Spanish colonial regions, and it would seem plausible in Maghreb noting the grip characteristics and perhaps the guardless feature aligns with the Kabyle flyssa somewhat. These would seem to have been dispersed to Latin American regions, where they would have served well in machete type functions.

[M ELEY]

I am convinced that the blade on the sword being discussed is from the same Spanish (I'm assuming) maker that forged the blade for my Brazilian espada cutlass. Mine was a weapon discussed in past threads and the grip on it is remarkably similar to these Berber sabers (used to have a clipped point Berber, so I've seen the similarity up close). As all have already pointed out, Spanish blades undoubtedly made their way into the Trade routes, especially with coastal areas such as Morocco. I suspect that the design of the hilt was originally African in origin (Saifs, nimchas, etc) and their patterns were copied in Spanish colonial regions-

[Rick]

Possibly we should be looking more at the hilt/handle construction and form for origin clues .

My example appears to be layers of leather topped off with horn scales, and the decoration seems to have been burnt in .

They certainly resemble nothing else I have ever seen in 16 some years of collecting .

Then again, that's not saying much .

[archer]

Do the sabers with Spanish motto's, etc, also have the tapered tang? The Berber photos are a stretch, but, if you look at the shadows cast by the hilts, the silhouettes take on to my eye the proper shape.
M Eley, Do the scabbards follow this odd blade protected by wood insert and a layer of leather on the outside and only leather on the inside? More importantly were both tangs tapered? Do the M1796 British Sabers have tapered tangs? Thanks Steve

I added a few photos that may help on origins?

[M ELEY]

Every example of Brazilian espada/cutlass I have seen lack a scabbard. It could be that none survived or that they were never intended to have a scabbard (if a true naval cutlass, they shouldn't). Getting back to the scabbard on yours, my Berber saber had a similar raised 'toe'. The hilts on these are all very similar, of horn slats pinned together. Not to confuse matters, but espada ancha also have similar hilt constructions (horn or bone slats with a tang sandwiched in the middle with pins/rivets holding them in place. The tang on my Berber was tapered, but I can't see the tang on my Brazilian piece as the horn hilt fully covers it. I've heard the theories of m1796 blades being used, but not sure what their tang was shaped like. Certainly, the tangs might have been altered/flattened to allow for the horn slats. After all, many of the Berber sabers had their points purposely clipped to form a 'crescent moon' shape. I assume you might have already looked up the thread 'On the origins of the so-called Berber sabre'? Some very interesting info there...