Tulwar....anyone recognise these marks?

katana · 11th July 2006, 01:03 AM

Just got myself another Tulwar.. cannot ID the marks...has anyone any ideas, thankyou. There was also the suggestion (from the seller)that the blade is Damascus, unlikely ...but it would be an added bonus....I'll have to get the vinegar out ...when it arrives

Overall length - 35.5" and Blade - 30.5"

Rick · 11th July 2006, 02:45 AM

The trident is familiar but I cannot associate it with any maker .

"The tri headed spear (trident) - one of the renowned weapons of Lord Shiva. So this is the second important emblem of Shaivites after nandi. As the Goddess shakti also holds this trident, this is the symbol that is held high by the devotees of shakti as well."

Most likely this blade is pattern welded but before you etch be aware that the patterns on munitions grade pattern welded tulwars are often not very interesting and can be 'muddy'.
Might be better to leave it as it is .

katana · 11th July 2006, 01:49 PM

Thanks Rick,
Is there an obvious way of ID'ing munition grade blades? If I do etch and find the pattern is not to my taste, would buff polishing be enough to return it to its original condition? Thanks

Rick · 11th July 2006, 03:01 PM

Well , I think I'm seeing some cold shuts in the pictures of this tulwar so it's likely to be a pattern welded blade . The thing to keep in mind when considering an etch is that to do it successfully you must remove the patina which is an irreversible step .
Then again from the pictures I'm not so sure I see much patina ; you'll know better when you receive it .

Yeh , of course you can repolish from a vinegar etch ... as long as it isn't etched to the point of being topographic .

katana · 7th August 2006, 06:14 PM

Received Tulwar, a true heavyweight, the spine is 8mm distally tapering to 1mm at the tip. Seems well balanced and substantial. The blade has little patina except near the hilt, probably has been recently cleaned (overly cleaned, if you ask me) Done a 'slight' etch ...faint signs of pattern welding.

Anyone have any ideas about origins or possible age? This certainly is a 'working tool' , a few clean nicks in the blade and spine.
I didn't realise that these swords were ever made this heavy......the Indo-persian Army must have had a few bodybuilders in its ranks

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2006, 10:50 PM

Congratulations on your 'new' tulwar.
Not very good pictures the seller gave you, but hopefully you will send better ones.

Elgood writes that the Sikhs often used this mark on their weapons.
Yes, some of the tulwars are rather on the heavy side, but fearful weapons all the same, if the user knew how to users them – and I am sure they did.

katana · 7th August 2006, 10:57 PM

Thanks Jens,
I'll try and post some better pictures, tomorrow.

spiral · 7th August 2006, 11:38 PM

I wonder if the trident & kater mark signifies one of the 560 Indian princly states, that existed alongside the Raj?

Heres the flags of some of them..

linky!

& hers a similary marked sword. {personaly I would ignore the territorial provinance, without evidence..}

Another linky!

Spiral

katana · 8th August 2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

& hers a similary marked sword. {personaly I would ignore the territorial provinance, without evidence..}

Another linky!

Spiral

Wow.... they are close..same orientation and very similar positioning...thanks Spiral

katana · 8th August 2006, 01:55 PM

The Katar marking was very unclear so I have carefully scrapped the grime from it ....and is clearly a depiction of a ....katar ...almost identical to the link provided above.
So, what does it all mean

, can the blade be dated from these marks? I have tried to photograph the Katar mark but due to the position it is difficult to get a clear pic. worth posting

Tim Simmons · 8th August 2006, 06:19 PM

I think what it means is that age is a very varied thing. A bit like reading newspapers.

katana · 9th August 2006, 02:11 PM

So if dating is not possible from these marks, are they Regional marks? Quality marks? manufacturer or armoury.....marks...I cannot seem to find anything on the web

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2006, 03:54 PM

Most of the Indian weapons in the western World, were either brought back by soldiers whose service had ended, or bought by dealers in very big lots, when the armouries were broken up. The soldiers must have known where they took the weapons, but the information is long forgotten or missing, and the dealers were seldom interested in markings, as their interest was to get the weapons to the western World and sold as soon as possible. The lack of interest in the markings then, is what now give the collectors and museums a lot of problems. We see the marks, but we don’t know what they mean – at least I don’t.

From the way the markings are placed, the katar at the beginning of the blade, sometimes almost under the langet, and the trisula well down the blade in the middle, could mean that they don’t have anything to do with each other, but this is pure guessing.

Has anyone ever seen one of these markings alone, or are they always seen together on blades?

katana · 9th August 2006, 04:11 PM

Jens the marks are deeply stamped and must have been made during the forging of the blade. 'Cold' stamping would have made only a light impression?

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2006, 05:43 PM

Hi Katana,

Should I try to guess, I would say that the katar could be an armoury mark. No one has mentioned anything about any numbers. Not that it matters much, as some armouries had marks, others did not, some numbered their weapons, and others did not. If the katar is a smiths mark, which is possible although I don’t think so, this man must have been rather busy, as I can understand there are quite a number of blades out there, marked with a katar. If the katar mark is an armoury mark, they would most likely have made it in a visible place, but not necessarily in a place where you could see it better than other possible marks. The trisula, I think, is something different; this could be a religious, or other kind of a mark, used inside an area or region where the katar was also used as a mark.

This is why I am interested in knowing, if the two marks always are seen together on blades.

Jens

PS You can sometimes find blades with more than one armoury mark.

RSWORD · 9th August 2006, 08:50 PM

Here is a picture of the trisula marking on one of my blades and it is the only marking.(no katar marking). This marking, however, is made as a seperate hot forged inlay as opposed to a stamping.

katana · 9th August 2006, 09:09 PM

RS ...thats a very nice blade...

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2006, 10:46 PM

Very nice picture, and it is interesting, that only the trisula is shown. I think I will have to have a look around.

Thank you very much Rick - it is a very nice blade

.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th August 2007, 02:54 PM

In Hindu Arms and Ritual, Robert Elgood writes on page 107. “The Marathas marked the trident on their swords and cannons in honour of Durga and surround the latter with lamps and an impromptu altar.” Unfortunately I could not find anything about the katar stamp – yet.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2007, 05:29 AM

Surprisingly, similar markings involving trisula and katars were recently discussed ("Help with these Marks" by Alex June 20,2007). The marks on this tulwar seem very familiar, and if I can recall, identical to others I have seen. Whether this means there are a number of swords from a certain maker or arsenal I cannot say, but it suggests that either the same sword is getting around a lot!

or as I have noted, there are a number remarkably similar.

Excellent cite from Elgood on the trisula stamp Jens!! Now again we return to the katar as discussed in Egerton (in the thread noted above), and again wonder if the siginficance could be as suggested.

Best regards,
Jim

11th July 2006, 01:03 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Tulwar....anyone recognise these marks? Just got myself another Tulwar.. cannot ID the marks...has anyone any ideas, thankyou. There was also the suggestion (from the seller)that the blade is Damascus, unlikely ...but it would be an added bonus....I'll have to get the vinegar out ...when it arrives Overall length - 35.5" and Blade - 30.5" Attached Images

8th August 2006, 01:55 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The Katar marking was very unclear so I have carefully scrapped the grime from it ....and is clearly a depiction of a ....katar ...almost identical to the link provided above. So, what does it all mean , can the blade be dated from these marks? I have tried to photograph the Katar mark but due to the position it is difficult to get a clear pic. worth posting Attached Images

9th August 2006, 08:50 PM	#16
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Here is a picture of the trisula marking on one of my blades and it is the only marking.(no katar marking). This marking, however, is made as a seperate hot forged inlay as opposed to a stamping. Attached Images

9th August 2006, 10:46 PM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very nice picture, and it is interesting, that only the trisula is shown. I think I will have to have a look around. Thank you very much Rick - it is a very nice blade.

11th July 2006, 02:45 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The trident is familiar but I cannot associate it with any maker . "The tri headed spear (trident) - one of the renowned weapons of Lord Shiva. So this is the second important emblem of Shaivites after nandi. As the Goddess shakti also holds this trident, this is the symbol that is held high by the devotees of shakti as well." Most likely this blade is pattern welded but before you etch be aware that the patterns on munitions grade pattern welded tulwars are often not very interesting and can be 'muddy'. Might be better to leave it as it is .

11th July 2006, 01:49 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Rick, Is there an obvious way of ID'ing munition grade blades? If I do etch and find the pattern is not to my taste, would buff polishing be enough to return it to its original condition? Thanks

11th July 2006, 03:01 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Well , I think I'm seeing some cold shuts in the pictures of this tulwar so it's likely to be a pattern welded blade . The thing to keep in mind when considering an etch is that to do it successfully you must remove the patina which is an irreversible step . Then again from the pictures I'm not so sure I see much patina ; you'll know better when you receive it . Yeh , of course you can repolish from a vinegar etch ... as long as it isn't etched to the point of being topographic .

7th August 2006, 06:14 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Received Tulwar, a true heavyweight, the spine is 8mm distally tapering to 1mm at the tip. Seems well balanced and substantial. The blade has little patina except near the hilt, probably has been recently cleaned (overly cleaned, if you ask me) Done a 'slight' etch ...faint signs of pattern welding. Anyone have any ideas about origins or possible age? This certainly is a 'working tool' , a few clean nicks in the blade and spine. I didn't realise that these swords were ever made this heavy......the Indo-persian Army must have had a few bodybuilders in its ranks

7th August 2006, 10:50 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Congratulations on your 'new' tulwar. Not very good pictures the seller gave you, but hopefully you will send better ones. Elgood writes that the Sikhs often used this mark on their weapons. Yes, some of the tulwars are rather on the heavy side, but fearful weapons all the same, if the user knew how to users them – and I am sure they did.

7th August 2006, 10:57 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Jens, I'll try and post some better pictures, tomorrow.

7th August 2006, 11:38 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I wonder if the trident & kater mark signifies one of the 560 Indian princly states, that existed alongside the Raj? Heres the flags of some of them.. linky! & hers a similary marked sword. {personaly I would ignore the territorial provinance, without evidence..} Another linky! Spiral

8th August 2006, 06:19 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think what it means is that age is a very varied thing. A bit like reading newspapers.

9th August 2006, 02:11 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	So if dating is not possible from these marks, are they Regional marks? Quality marks? manufacturer or armoury.....marks...I cannot seem to find anything on the web

9th August 2006, 03:54 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Most of the Indian weapons in the western World, were either brought back by soldiers whose service had ended, or bought by dealers in very big lots, when the armouries were broken up. The soldiers must have known where they took the weapons, but the information is long forgotten or missing, and the dealers were seldom interested in markings, as their interest was to get the weapons to the western World and sold as soon as possible. The lack of interest in the markings then, is what now give the collectors and museums a lot of problems. We see the marks, but we don’t know what they mean – at least I don’t. From the way the markings are placed, the katar at the beginning of the blade, sometimes almost under the langet, and the trisula well down the blade in the middle, could mean that they don’t have anything to do with each other, but this is pure guessing. Has anyone ever seen one of these markings alone, or are they always seen together on blades?

9th August 2006, 04:11 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Jens the marks are deeply stamped and must have been made during the forging of the blade. 'Cold' stamping would have made only a light impression?

9th August 2006, 05:43 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Katana, Should I try to guess, I would say that the katar could be an armoury mark. No one has mentioned anything about any numbers. Not that it matters much, as some armouries had marks, others did not, some numbered their weapons, and others did not. If the katar is a smiths mark, which is possible although I don’t think so, this man must have been rather busy, as I can understand there are quite a number of blades out there, marked with a katar. If the katar mark is an armoury mark, they would most likely have made it in a visible place, but not necessarily in a place where you could see it better than other possible marks. The trisula, I think, is something different; this could be a religious, or other kind of a mark, used inside an area or region where the katar was also used as a mark. This is why I am interested in knowing, if the two marks always are seen together on blades. Jens PS You can sometimes find blades with more than one armoury mark.

9th August 2006, 09:09 PM	#17
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	RS ...thats a very nice blade...

11th August 2007, 02:54 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Hindu Arms and Ritual, Robert Elgood writes on page 107. “The Marathas marked the trident on their swords and cannons in honour of Durga and surround the latter with lamps and an impromptu altar.” Unfortunately I could not find anything about the katar stamp – yet.

12th August 2007, 05:29 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Surprisingly, similar markings involving trisula and katars were recently discussed ("Help with these Marks" by Alex June 20,2007). The marks on this tulwar seem very familiar, and if I can recall, identical to others I have seen. Whether this means there are a number of swords from a certain maker or arsenal I cannot say, but it suggests that either the same sword is getting around a lot! or as I have noted, there are a number remarkably similar. Excellent cite from Elgood on the trisula stamp Jens!! Now again we return to the katar as discussed in Egerton (in the thread noted above), and again wonder if the siginficance could be as suggested. Best regards, Jim