need help

ariel · 2nd March 2016, 10:42 PM

Folks,
I was reorganizing my long-forgotten storage space and found this kris.
He must have come to me many years ago and was just hiding.
I am still terminally uneducated kris-wise, and the only thing I can guess that the sheath is Jawanese, Gayaman style. Am I off by 180 degrees?

Can you tell me what did I buy many years ago, and whether it has any interest, age and value ( I am not asking about the monetary one, purely historical/artistic)

Will be glad to pay back with insights into Islamic/Caucasian stuff.
Thanks a lot.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd March 2016, 11:29 PM

Ariel, could you please let us have a photo of the fit of the blade into the scabbard?

Put the blade into the scabbard and then take a shot of each side of the base of the blade, looking down the side of the tang.

Thanks.

David · 2nd March 2016, 11:52 PM

The sheath is most definitely a Balinese sheath.
The sheath seems older than the blade to me. The blade looks contemporary, done in a Balinese style, but i am not certain if it was made there or possibly by a Javanese smith in the Bali form. This is not a pamor pattern that you see very often on a true Balinese keris. I suspect that Alan is asking about the fit to see if this sheath was indeed made for this blade or in fact adapted. I suspect the latter, but your photos will tell.
No matter the actual origin of the blade it is a Bali style and i would fit this with a Balinese style hilt. I would think a basic bondalan style would be appropriate here.

ariel · 3rd March 2016, 01:08 AM

Thanks for responding. I am sure the blade and the sheath were made for each other. They fit each other perfectly and the opening of the sheath faithfully reproduces the outline of the top of the gangya.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2016, 01:25 AM

Thanks Ariel.

My first impression was current era production of both blade and scabbard, but if we look closely at the blade, this pamor does not really reflect the way in which the current stuff is done, there are more than a few imperfections, and the cold management of the pamor has not been done very well.

Current era production would be expected to be of much better quality --- these Madura smiths are amongst the world's best pattern welders, ever. Pattern welding has been done in the Sumenep area for hundreds of years, and the present generation have inherited one hell of a lot of knowledge and skill.

The forge work does not look like Bali, main island production, but the cold work does tend to reflect what we expect to see in a Bali keris.

I could change my mind if I handled this blade, but from what I believe I can see in the photos, I am inclined to give it as Bali-Lombok.

The form of the scabbard is unusual, yes, overall form is most certainly Bali, but I cannot recall ever having seen the details in this combination in a Bali scabbard, so once again I'll take a punt on Lombok.

All in all, not a bad keris, as David has suggested I'd opt for a planar Bali hilt, Bondolan style, with or without the hilt ring.

ariel · 3rd March 2016, 01:35 AM

Thanks Alan!

I was wondering about the wood. The sheath is incredibly heavy, very dark to the point I thought it was painted or stained. I took a bit of aceton and rubbed in an inconspicuous area: nothing. The wood color is natural.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2016, 04:29 AM

In the photo it looks dark brown, but if in fact it tends towards blackish, its probably what they call 'kayu arang' in Bali, which is a type of ebony, I'd guess Thailand ebony. This wood is not uncommon in Balinese scabbards.

ariel · 3rd March 2016, 04:55 AM

It is almost black, you are correct, So it fits, doesn't it?
Many thanks again.
Can you guess the age of this kris?
And how difficult is it to get a good Planar Balinese handle?
Any particular name for this pamor?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2016, 06:15 AM

Bulu ayam is as good a name as any for the pamor. Chicken feathers.

There are other names, I've given an East Jawa name, there might be a Bali name, but off the top of my head I can't think of it.

If my Lombok guess is correct we could probably give age as 1850-1940, if I'm wrong and it is current era Sumenep production I'd say 1985-2000.

It could be quite difficult to get a nice bondolan hilt with a bit of age, and if truly old, expect unreasonably expensive. I don't do ebay, but I'd guess that consistent trawling of that site would eventually get you something.

David · 3rd March 2016, 06:27 AM

Thanks for the additional images. I would agree that this sheath does appear to have been made for this blade. This will be a nice ensemble once you add a hilt. Bondolan hilts are not difficult to come by. I see them pop up on eBay rather regularly. Will keep an eye out for you.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2016, 07:39 AM

David, I acknowledge that you know vastly more about ebay than do I, and I have no doubt that bondolan hilts do appear, let us hope that Ariel can obtain a nice one with some age to complete his keris.

ariel · 3rd March 2016, 12:01 PM

Alan and David,
Thank you very much for your help.
And, David, special thanks for "keeping an eye" for a good planar hilt.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2016, 07:24 PM

Ariel, it would be nice if you could get an older bondolan with good form, and of the right size so that proportion is correct, however, if you find that you can't tick all the boxes, bear in mind that ideally, a hilt should not be markedly lighter in colour than the scabbard.

Your scabbard is very dark, so really, you need a hilt of probably the same, or similar material, and in a bondolan, this will be quite difficult.

Even though a bondolan would look good with this scabbard, in the end, you might find that you need to go with a figural hilt.

So, although bondolans may come up from time to time, you need:- good form, good proportional size, a dark colour.

Good luck!

Jean · 3rd March 2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Bulu ayam is as good a name as any for the pamor. Chicken feathers.

There are other names, I've given an East Jawa name, there might be a Bali name, but off the top of my head I can't think of it.

If my Lombok guess is correct we could probably give age as 1850-1940, if I'm wrong and it is current era Sumenep production I'd say 1985-2000.

It could be quite difficult to get a nice bondolan hilt with a bit of age, and if truly old, expect unreasonably expensive. I don't do ebay, but I'd guess that consistent trawling of that site would eventually get you something.

I would personally opt for the current Sumenep production because of the stiff pawakan, complex pamor miring, blade surface, ganja with pamor, etc. and would have identified the pamor pattern as Mayang Mekar. The wrangka is in modern & fantasy batun poh style. Of course I could be wrong!

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 4th March 2016, 05:02 AM

Agreed Jean.

We can always be wrong.

However, one of the beauties of keris discussion is that in the final analysis there is no ultimate authority, it comes down to the authority that is recognised within the particular group, very often this person is given the title of "Penangguh", in other words, the recognised authority in respect of tangguh. Since we don't have one of these people, everybody has the freedom to express an opinion without fear of contradiction.

As I commented in a previous post, my initial impression was that we are looking at current production, but after I spent a lot of time looking at the way in which the pamor had been made, and the way in which it had been managed on the bench, I felt an inclination to opt for origin somewhere other than Sumenep. Frankly, I just don't think the work is good enough for it to be Sumenep within the last 15-20 years. Maybe an early effort, yes, but not in recent years. But in truth, I'd really need to handle it to give a defensible opinion.

Since we know that Lombok production of Bali style tends to stray from the straight and narrow, and inclines to mix Bali style with Jawa style, and add a good touch of flamboyancy, I thought that maybe Lombok might be a good punt if I didn't like Sumenep so much.

However, who can tell much from a photo?

In most cases, I find that all I can get from a photo is a vague idea and a lot of assumptions.

Regarding the wrongko, with the deepest respect I do beg to differ from your opinion that we are looking at a "modern fantasy" interpretation. Every feature I can see in that wrongko I have seen in genuine Balinese wrongkos, every feature, including the tail on the wideng and the flared buntut. However, I have not seen the combination of these features in a single wrongko

In respect of the pamor name, Ron Duru (ron genduru, ron kenduru), Bulu Ayam, Mayang Mekar, are all related. Ron Duru is usual in Jawa Tengah, Bulu Ayam in Jawa Timur, whereas Mayang Mekar is a little different to RD and BA in that ideally the leaves are staggered, not originating from the same base, they tend to be a little more whispy than the RD and BA leaves, and some people hold that the outside ends of the leaves of MM should turn back towards the gonjo.

One of the things that has contributed to confusion of pamor names is the proliferation of books that show pictures of pamors, for instance Haryoguritno shows a pic of BA that would not be recognised as BA in Jawa Timur, but BA is the Jawa Timur name for RD. Show an RD to a keris authority in Malang and he'll give it as BA; show a BA to keris authority in Solo and he'll give it as RD. They are essentially the same pamor, but within that broad church of RD/BA there are sub-divisions of RD/BA.

Then there are a number of pamors that are made in the same way as RD/BA, but have a somewhat different final appearance.

2nd March 2016, 10:42 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	need help Folks, I was reorganizing my long-forgotten storage space and found this kris. He must have come to me many years ago and was just hiding. I am still terminally uneducated kris-wise, and the only thing I can guess that the sheath is Jawanese, Gayaman style. Am I off by 180 degrees? Can you tell me what did I buy many years ago, and whether it has any interest, age and value ( I am not asking about the monetary one, purely historical/artistic) Will be glad to pay back with insights into Islamic/Caucasian stuff. Thanks a lot. Attached Images

3rd March 2016, 01:08 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for responding. I am sure the blade and the sheath were made for each other. They fit each other perfectly and the opening of the sheath faithfully reproduces the outline of the top of the gangya. Attached Images

3rd March 2016, 07:39 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	David, I acknowledge that you know vastly more about ebay than do I, and I have no doubt that bondolan hilts do appear, let us hope that Ariel can obtain a nice one with some age to complete his keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd March 2016 at 11:20 AM. Reason: too verbose

2nd March 2016, 11:29 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Ariel, could you please let us have a photo of the fit of the blade into the scabbard? Put the blade into the scabbard and then take a shot of each side of the base of the blade, looking down the side of the tang. Thanks.

2nd March 2016, 11:52 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	The sheath is most definitely a Balinese sheath. The sheath seems older than the blade to me. The blade looks contemporary, done in a Balinese style, but i am not certain if it was made there or possibly by a Javanese smith in the Bali form. This is not a pamor pattern that you see very often on a true Balinese keris. I suspect that Alan is asking about the fit to see if this sheath was indeed made for this blade or in fact adapted. I suspect the latter, but your photos will tell. No matter the actual origin of the blade it is a Bali style and i would fit this with a Balinese style hilt. I would think a basic bondalan style would be appropriate here.

3rd March 2016, 01:25 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thanks Ariel. My first impression was current era production of both blade and scabbard, but if we look closely at the blade, this pamor does not really reflect the way in which the current stuff is done, there are more than a few imperfections, and the cold management of the pamor has not been done very well. Current era production would be expected to be of much better quality --- these Madura smiths are amongst the world's best pattern welders, ever. Pattern welding has been done in the Sumenep area for hundreds of years, and the present generation have inherited one hell of a lot of knowledge and skill. The forge work does not look like Bali, main island production, but the cold work does tend to reflect what we expect to see in a Bali keris. I could change my mind if I handled this blade, but from what I believe I can see in the photos, I am inclined to give it as Bali-Lombok. The form of the scabbard is unusual, yes, overall form is most certainly Bali, but I cannot recall ever having seen the details in this combination in a Bali scabbard, so once again I'll take a punt on Lombok. All in all, not a bad keris, as David has suggested I'd opt for a planar Bali hilt, Bondolan style, with or without the hilt ring.

3rd March 2016, 01:35 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks Alan! I was wondering about the wood. The sheath is incredibly heavy, very dark to the point I thought it was painted or stained. I took a bit of aceton and rubbed in an inconspicuous area: nothing. The wood color is natural.

3rd March 2016, 04:29 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	In the photo it looks dark brown, but if in fact it tends towards blackish, its probably what they call 'kayu arang' in Bali, which is a type of ebony, I'd guess Thailand ebony. This wood is not uncommon in Balinese scabbards.

3rd March 2016, 04:55 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is almost black, you are correct, So it fits, doesn't it? Many thanks again. Can you guess the age of this kris? And how difficult is it to get a good Planar Balinese handle? Any particular name for this pamor?

3rd March 2016, 06:15 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Bulu ayam is as good a name as any for the pamor. Chicken feathers. There are other names, I've given an East Jawa name, there might be a Bali name, but off the top of my head I can't think of it. If my Lombok guess is correct we could probably give age as 1850-1940, if I'm wrong and it is current era Sumenep production I'd say 1985-2000. It could be quite difficult to get a nice bondolan hilt with a bit of age, and if truly old, expect unreasonably expensive. I don't do ebay, but I'd guess that consistent trawling of that site would eventually get you something.

3rd March 2016, 06:27 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Thanks for the additional images. I would agree that this sheath does appear to have been made for this blade. This will be a nice ensemble once you add a hilt. Bondolan hilts are not difficult to come by. I see them pop up on eBay rather regularly. Will keep an eye out for you.

3rd March 2016, 12:01 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan and David, Thank you very much for your help. And, David, special thanks for "keeping an eye" for a good planar hilt.

3rd March 2016, 07:24 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Ariel, it would be nice if you could get an older bondolan with good form, and of the right size so that proportion is correct, however, if you find that you can't tick all the boxes, bear in mind that ideally, a hilt should not be markedly lighter in colour than the scabbard. Your scabbard is very dark, so really, you need a hilt of probably the same, or similar material, and in a bondolan, this will be quite difficult. Even though a bondolan would look good with this scabbard, in the end, you might find that you need to go with a figural hilt. So, although bondolans may come up from time to time, you need:- good form, good proportional size, a dark colour. Good luck!

4th March 2016, 05:02 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Agreed Jean. We can always be wrong. However, one of the beauties of keris discussion is that in the final analysis there is no ultimate authority, it comes down to the authority that is recognised within the particular group, very often this person is given the title of "Penangguh", in other words, the recognised authority in respect of tangguh. Since we don't have one of these people, everybody has the freedom to express an opinion without fear of contradiction. As I commented in a previous post, my initial impression was that we are looking at current production, but after I spent a lot of time looking at the way in which the pamor had been made, and the way in which it had been managed on the bench, I felt an inclination to opt for origin somewhere other than Sumenep. Frankly, I just don't think the work is good enough for it to be Sumenep within the last 15-20 years. Maybe an early effort, yes, but not in recent years. But in truth, I'd really need to handle it to give a defensible opinion. Since we know that Lombok production of Bali style tends to stray from the straight and narrow, and inclines to mix Bali style with Jawa style, and add a good touch of flamboyancy, I thought that maybe Lombok might be a good punt if I didn't like Sumenep so much. However, who can tell much from a photo? In most cases, I find that all I can get from a photo is a vague idea and a lot of assumptions. Regarding the wrongko, with the deepest respect I do beg to differ from your opinion that we are looking at a "modern fantasy" interpretation. Every feature I can see in that wrongko I have seen in genuine Balinese wrongkos, every feature, including the tail on the wideng and the flared buntut. However, I have not seen the combination of these features in a single wrongko In respect of the pamor name, Ron Duru (ron genduru, ron kenduru), Bulu Ayam, Mayang Mekar, are all related. Ron Duru is usual in Jawa Tengah, Bulu Ayam in Jawa Timur, whereas Mayang Mekar is a little different to RD and BA in that ideally the leaves are staggered, not originating from the same base, they tend to be a little more whispy than the RD and BA leaves, and some people hold that the outside ends of the leaves of MM should turn back towards the gonjo. One of the things that has contributed to confusion of pamor names is the proliferation of books that show pictures of pamors, for instance Haryoguritno shows a pic of BA that would not be recognised as BA in Jawa Timur, but BA is the Jawa Timur name for RD. Show an RD to a keris authority in Malang and he'll give it as BA; show a BA to keris authority in Solo and he'll give it as RD. They are essentially the same pamor, but within that broad church of RD/BA there are sub-divisions of RD/BA. Then there are a number of pamors that are made in the same way as RD/BA, but have a somewhat different final appearance.