Pamor Kembang Pete (Stinky Bean)

[Bjorn]

I stumbled upon a pamor called kembang pete. I believe the pete here refers to pete beans, known in English under various names (sator bean, stinky bean, bitter bean, etc.). Personally I find them delicious and that is probably why this pamor immediately intrigued me.

If you compare the below photo of the beans still in their pod, I think it looks very similar to the pattern depicted on the keris' blade. However, kembang means flower, which suggests the pattern should resemble the flowers instead of the beans (flowers also pictured below). Is it possible that kembang here actually does refer to the beans, and not the flowers? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?

Also, I'd love to know what this pamor represents. What are the societal implications? Was it popular, rare, used by a specific sort of people? I'd like to know as much as possible about this pamor, so if anyone has knowledge to share it would be greatly appreciated.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yuuzan, may I enquire who provided you with this name for this pamor?

[Bjorn]

I just stumbled across it when looking for pictures of what kembang pala looks like. It could, of course, be a name made up by a seller for fun and extra appeal (although I really hope this isn't the case). I included the links to the two pages that feature this pamor below.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Yuuzan.

I'm not going to comment on this matter, but I will most humbly offer this suggestion:-

Try to obtain the books listed below and use them as reference works, I feel their contents would be invaluable for you.

1. Krisses-A critical Bibliography-David van Duuren.Pictures Publishers,Polstraat 52,4261 BV,Wijk en Aalburg,Holland.

2. Keris Jawa-antara Mystik dan Nalar-Haryono Haryoguritno- P.T. Indonesia Kebanggaanku-Jakarta, ISBN: 979-25-2530-0. Text in Indonesian.

3.The World of the Javanese Keris-Garrett and Bronwen Solyom,East-West Centre-Hawaii,1978.

4. Ensiklopedi Keris- Bambang Harsrinuksmo, Gramedia- Jakarta, ISBN: 979-22-0649-3.Text in Indonesian

5. The Kris-An Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol-David van Duuren.Pictures PublishersPolstraat 52,4261 BV,Wijk en Aalburg,Holland.

[Bjorn]

Thank you for the recommendations Alan,

I had some of those books on my wish list already, and will add the ones I did not. I am keen to read them but owing to my present financial situation I fear it may be a while unless I come across affordable 2nd-hand copies. I'll keep an eye out.

[VANDOO]

A VERY INTERESTING KERIS, I KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT KERIS BUT DO LIKE THEM. THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN I HAVE SEEN IS IT A OLD PARMOUR DONE A BIT DIFFERENT OR SOMETHING NEW I DON'T KNOW.
I DO LIKE IT. THE KERIS BLADE IN GENERAL HAS A ROUGH BLADE TEXTURE THAT WOULD NOT GO IN AND OUT SMOOTHLY WHEN STABBING.
DAGGERS FROM MOST OTHER CULTURES AND COUNTRYS HAVE SMOOTH BLADES. YOUR EXAMPLE WOULD BE A BUMPY RIDE GOING IN AND OUT. OUCH!
THE STINKY BEAN IDEA IS FUN TOO REGARDLESS OF IF ITS TRUE OR NOT.

[kai]

I had some of those books on my wish list already, and will add the ones I did not. I am keen to read them but owing to my present financial situation I fear it may be a while unless I come across affordable 2nd-hand copies. I'll keep an eye out.

Check your local library. If they don't have a copy, they should be able to loan it from another library (Dutch or even internationally); ask for the fee first (usually very reasonable).

Actually, I'd toss "4. Ensiklopedi Keris" for those not speaking Indonesian - much of the info therein can be compiled from (more up-to-date) online sources nowadays. I'd go for late Karsten Sejr Jensen's "Kris disk" (CD) or the recent translation of Isaac Groneman "The Javanese Kris", instead.

Both books by David van Duuren have Dutch versions which seem to be offered a little cheaper than the English editions. There will me minor differences/additions.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

It is always valuable to learn of another perspective on the written sources that may be of value for one wishing to gain a little knowledge of the keris, and I appreciate your opinion Kai, perhaps even more than Yuuzan might, and I thank you for offering that opinion.

However Kai, having said that, I feel that you have now placed me in a position where I must justify my own opinion.

The value of Ensiklopedi to somebody who does not read Indonesian is in the multitude of illustrations and their captions; to understand those, very little, if any knowledge of Bahasa Indonesia is required. The observation that "more up to date" sources are available on line is interesting to me, as my own inclination is to turn to the traditional sources for reliable information in respect of classificatory information, rather than more recent sources, and Ensiklopedi is principally a book that provides classificatory information. Bambang Harsrinuksmo drew upon both current opinion, and upon the literature of a past age in his compilation of Ensiklopedi, which makes of it a "one-stop shop" if we need a quick and easy classification.

Groneman's work is a landmark, no doubt about it. As a part of history it is of extreme value, and deserves to be read by all of us who have a keris interest. However, although there is much of value in this work, there are also more than a few flaws. Flaws which are to be expected when we consider the time at which it was written, and the societal position of the person who wrote it. Groneman is of great historical interest, but as a source of information I could not recommend it to a newcomer attempting to come to terms with the keris. Where I do find Groneman to be of great interest is as a reflection of the light in which the Javanese regarded their Dutch masters.

I have great respect for the late Karsten Sejr Jensen, and as with several other authors for whom I also have great personal respect, I will refrain from comment on his work.

Actually, it would not surprise me if Yuuzan does have some ability to read Indonesian, as the two links he provided and which were then edited out in accordance with Forum rules, were to sites that were written in Indonesian.

Again I thank you for your opinion Kai, and I would beg your indulgence if I may, in the provision of a further opinion.

I may be wrong, but I feel that most serious students of the keris are in agreement that an understanding of the keris cannot be gained from books written principally about the keris, but rather from reference works dealing with sociology and anthropology. Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide us with some of your recommendations in those fields? I am constantly searching for material I have not yet seen in these fields that could assist my own limited understanding.

[Bjorn]

Kai, Alan - thanks for your additional insights.

I'll look into what books are available through libraries here. Would indeed be a far cheaper option than purchasing the books at this point in time.

Alan, I do know a little Bahasa Indonesia, but not much. Let's say it's enough for some rudimentary Google searches but not yet enough for serious reading.

[Rick]

I would like to suggest one other book .

Mysticism In Java - Ideology In Indonesia
Author, Neils Mulder

[Bjorn]

Rick, I actually just bought that book for 5 euros! Haven't read it yet, but good to hear it comes recommended!

[Rick]

You might find it useful .

[David]

I also found it a informative and useful read...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, not a bad place to start in gaining an understanding of things Javanese.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

However Kai, having said that, I feel that you have now placed me in a position where I must justify my own opinion.

Sorry, my passing comment wasn't meant to put you in any such position. I was merely trying to maximize bang for the buck from the perspective of a budding collector.

The value of Ensiklopedi to somebody who does not read Indonesian is in the multitude of illustrations and their captions; to understand those, very little, if any knowledge of Bahasa Indonesia is required. The observation that "more up to date" sources are available on line is interesting to me, as my own inclination is to turn to the traditional sources for reliable information in respect of classificatory information, rather than more recent sources, and Ensiklopedi is principally a book that provides classificatory information. Bambang Harsrinuksmo drew upon both current opinion, and upon the literature of a past age in his compilation of Ensiklopedi, which makes of it a "one-stop shop" if we need a quick and easy classification.

It certainly deserves a place in a keris library. I'm just not convinced that it is of paramount importance early in a keris career. I'm missing in-depth discussions rather than focusing on names (which could change around the next corner); it's an encyklopedia though... While I can't judge the veracity of informaton on keris Jawa, I'm also somewhat disappointed about entries on keris from other cultures.

Groneman's work is a landmark, no doubt about it. As a part of history it is of extreme value, and deserves to be read by all of us who have a keris interest. However, although there is much of value in this work, there are also more than a few flaws. Flaws which are to be expected when we consider the time at which it was written, and the societal position of the person who wrote it. Groneman is of great historical interest, but as a source of information I could not recommend it to a newcomer attempting to come to terms with the keris. Where I do find Groneman to be of great interest is as a reflection of the light in which the Javanese regarded their Dutch masters.

I agree. One added value - of the translation only - that I thought of were the many added pics of old keris from Dutch musea, etc. (which I believe would help to get a new collector "in tune" with traditional keris rather than modern low-end work). Same-o for the kris disk which excells at showing "good ol' stuff" from many different regions IMHO.

I have great respect for the late Karsten Sejr Jensen, and as with several other authors for whom I also have great personal respect, I will refrain from comment on his work.

I believe that a factual approach regarding the contributions of others (that notes good/interesting facets, identifies what might be dubious or unsupported by hard evidence, or explains what can be proven to be wrong) is the best way to advance knowledge. I may miss some subleties of life but don't think this should change just because someone is dead. I, for one, would be pretty much pissed if people stopped discussing any ideas/etc. of mine just because the inevitable had happened.

I may be wrong, but I feel that most serious students of the keris are in agreement that an understanding of the keris cannot be gained from books written principally about the keris, but rather from reference works dealing with sociology and anthropology.

I agree that works about ethnic groups and their specific cultures in general are very important for understanding. However, this is quite a different aim than the recommendations we started with...

Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide us with some of your recommendations in those fields? I am constantly searching for material I have not yet seen in these fields that could assist my own limited understanding.

I have to admit that I have drawn a lot from your prior recommendations in this respect - like the works of Wiener, etc. I reckon that I'd need to come up with pretty obscure references for you not having read them already!

Having said that, I also feel that for any period one is interested in, it also helps to spend considerable time on researching the neighbouring cultures (like Indian subcontinent to Chaam for the Hindu-Buddhist era) as well as cultures that had a heavy presence throughout the archipelago (Arab/China/Japan as well as Bugis or Moro contenders).

One meta resource I find myself returning to regularly is the Aceh library where a lot of treasures can be discovered (from early colonial sources to academic papers). I wish we had such resources freely available for all regions of the world (without prior desaster that is)!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for sharing your ideas Kai, it is always valuable for any of us to gain a slightly different perspective.

I've got a fairly old fashioned approach to learning. It is certainly at variance with what I can understand of modern educational methods. My belief is that knowledge is not about "knowing", but rather about "understanding".

For example, an educational trend of a few years ago, and one that is still supported by some sectors of the educational community, is that reading can be taught be recognition of complete words. Yes, this approach can work, for the purpose of teaching somebody to read, but what it misses on is that reading is not an end in itself, reading is only a tool that permits access to other tools, and in the absence of the foundation blocks of the learnt ability to read, some, if not most, of those other tools cannot be adequately accessed. This could be likened to building a house in the absence of footings. Yes, the house will be built, but as time passes the brickwork will crack and eventually fail.

I submit that the same thing will happen in any field of knowledge. Knowledge by itself is useless in the absence of understanding :
understanding is unlikely to exist in the absence of a foundation upon which to place the knowledge.

I would suggest that there are at least two ways in which to approach any field of learning. One can take the superficial approach and target examination results, or one can take the longer, slower route and attempt a deeper understanding, and that deeper understanding may, or may not produce excellent examination results. I think that many of us have probably encountered the show pony who has a couple of PhD's and more minor degrees and diplomas than we have had hot breakfasts, but who is an abject failure when he is actually asked to do something associated with his academic qualifications.

So, if we then consider where keris learning should begin, and if we adopt my preferred approach of moving towards understanding, rather accumulating a series of words and pictures, in simple terms, my recommendation is to first learn the ABC of the keris. With this in mind, my recommendations for early learning associated with the keris remain at my previous recommendations.

When we have mastered that ABC, we can then advance our knowledge by the asking of questions. These questions do not need to be asked of a person, but can be formulated in our own minds and the answers sought from all available sources, which might be printed matter, or from people who have a little more experience than ourselves. When we have the answers , those answers can be tested.

Finally we will reach the point where the answers to our questions are no longer easily obtained, and that is when we need to move that one step further and undertake independent research, rather than to rely upon the repetition of shared opinions. In other words, at that pint we need to move out of the comfort zone of having people agree with us and move into an area where we can support our own opinions in the absence of group agreement.

All of this can only begin with the very basic learning of the keris ABC.

If I were to recommend a single book for the first book of a budding student of the keris it would be Solyom.

Now I can hear somebody telling me that yes, that's fine, but Solyom is very deficient as a keris text because it does not deal with any other than the Javanese keris.

Let us not forget that my objective is understanding of the keris, that is to say understanding of a cultural artifact. My objective is not the acquisition of the superficial knowledge of classification and terminology across the broad expanse of keris distribution. Since it is only within the Jawa-Bali nexus that the keris functioned in its original intended role my position is that it is simply not possible to gain a true understanding of the keris within any society in the absence of an understanding of the keris within the society which gave it birth.

So Kai, I most certainly do agree with you that my mention of sociology and anthropology were very much divorced from the original thrust of providing some published resources for a newcomer to the world of the keris, however, those mentions were for my own benefit, and were completely divorced from the recommendations I had already made in response to Yuuzan's apparent needs. I know you to be a serious man, and an experienced collector, and I had hoped that perhaps your own independent research had unearthed something which could be of interest to me. As it happens, this is so, for I had never previously heard of the Aceh library. It is probably not likely that there will be much in this library that I will find of interest, its very existence demands that I acquaint myself with its contents. I thank you for providing me with this opportunity.

Again, I agree with you that if one is to understand the nature of the ocean, one needs more than a bucketful of sea water, however, the beginning is still the ABC of the keris, and for that only a very few references are necessary.