Identification help

clockwork · 14th May 2020, 11:40 PM

Hi guys long time no post. I just recently picked this up. not sure if it's a fake or real. It seems to be from around WW2 time frame, has Japanese markings but the writing on the blade seems to come from Morocco. Any help on identification is appreciated.

Rick · 15th May 2020, 12:19 AM

It would be very helpful to see the sword in its entirety. The flowers are not Chrysanthemums which are usually depicted on Japanese weapons.

clockwork · 15th May 2020, 01:30 AM

just added 2 more pics.

kahnjar1 · 15th May 2020, 01:46 AM

Check here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...an_Gendarmerie
Stu

Battara · 15th May 2020, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

It would be very helpful to see the sword in its entirety. The flowers are not Chrysanthemums which are usually depicted on Japanese weapons.

Yeah - early 20th - WWII Japanese swords often had them. However, these are not typical Japanese style chrysanthemums.

clockwork · 15th May 2020, 04:32 AM

it's a nice piece just wish i could find out more about it.

Ren Ren · 15th May 2020, 02:04 PM

May be "Gendarmerie royale khmère du Cambodge"?
https://www.force-publique.net/sourc...mbodge-fr.html

Ian · 16th May 2020, 08:14 AM

Very close resemblance to this sword which sold at auction in 2014 (see here). This sword is in a plain steel scabbard (what we can see). Auction details indicate:

Quote:

French Gendarmerie Royale Sword with brass two bar and dish back hilt. Decorated floral back strap. Complete with its steel scabbard with decorative brass ring mounts. Steel blade with remains of GENDARMERIE ROYALE wording. Good overall condition.

Probably not a "fake" IMHO, but hard to say.

.

Ian · 16th May 2020, 08:24 AM

And another from a different auction site. Listed as WWII Sino-Japanese War. This one has the same "chrysanthemum" motifs on the scabbard. Basket hilt is different however, and lower quality cast brass on hilt.
.

Ian · 16th May 2020, 08:48 AM

And another one on Worthpoint here. Each of the three examples I've shown were considered the auction sites to be of French manufacture and made during approximately the WWII period. Each site advertised it as an unusual sword. It would seem that the French either made it for other nations or others copied them.

Clockwork, if no further information is forthcoming here, I'll move it over to the European forum where you might get a more detailed response.

Ian.

clockwork · 16th May 2020, 10:06 AM

Thank you. I suspected it was of FrenchDesign all along. Just was not sure with the flower motifs. Which resemble my Japanese Police sword from around the same period. Google search of the name leaned towards Morocco.

I was also suspect from the similar designs on the other sword which seem to have more providence than this design. In another forum From 10+ years ago it talked about mass produced fakes from China.but was unable to see the pics on it. here is the link. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.20796.html. I hope to find out more and do thank all you.

Battara · 16th May 2020, 07:51 PM

Folks, I would argue with that auction attribution of their example being Japanese. They are confusing their example with the traditional WWII parade and police swords of Japan during that era.

What says "French" to me is not only the blade and the inscription, but this section (circled in red) that I have seen on French made examples:

asomotif · 17th May 2020, 09:50 PM

I am amazed about the quality of the example in post 8, but in general this sword makes me think of : made in the PRC

They like to combine styles and inscriptions and sell everything as ww2 japanese. just my 2 cents.

Ian · 18th May 2020, 02:15 AM

Clockwork:

As mentioned above, I'm moving this one over to the European Forum where you might get a clearer answer as to whether this is a French sword or a Chinese creation.

Ian.

Ian · 18th May 2020, 02:26 AM

Gents:

This sword was posted in the Ethnographic Forum for identification. It is of European style, and the inscription (GENDARMERIE ROYALE) is an obvious allusion to a possible French origin. However, a number of members have noted the Oriental motif (Chrysanthemum) on the cast brass elements, not typically in the Japanese style, leading to an alternative view that this may be a Chinese creation of the mid- to late-20th C.

Several examples of similar swords have been culled from the web to indicate that it is not a unique specimen. Different hilt styles are observed, with some examples being of poorer quality than the topic of this thread.

We are referring the sword to the European Armoury Forum for an opinion as to whether it has French origins or is a Chinese fantasy or knock off.

Ian

Will M · 18th May 2020, 03:16 AM

A definite fantasy sword most likely Chinese made. So many details and main parts inaccurately portrayed. I don't know where to start, the lettering is amateurish, the quality very low and nothing points to the sword as being from any pattern.The "patina" alone points to a chemical wash. Many sand casting flaws and non descript designs. Few swords are found with their leather blade washers and fantasy swords typically have poor quality leather washers as these do.
One auction describes the sword as:
"French Gendarmerie Royale Sword with brass two bar and dish back hilt. Decorated floral back strap. Complete with its steel scabbard with decorative brass ring mounts. Steel blade with remains of ?GENDARMERIE ROYALE? wording."
When one struggles to describe such swords, the above description is what you get. Auctioneers stay clear of describing these as authentic swords. Some auctioneers will tell you low bid start price tells bidders the item is a copy/fake.

kronckew · 18th May 2020, 06:59 AM

Also: The abrupt 'point' looks very fake Chinesey. As does the blade lettering. They are fairly well known for fairly good chemical 'aging'. Bit too uniform tho.

I'd expect a better cartouche, font, and gold lettering like this Gendarmarie Royale du Canada (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) Junior Officers sword: (not mine)

clockwork · 19th May 2020, 10:12 AM

Thank you all for the help.

Evgeny_K · 21st May 2020, 03:44 PM

without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword
fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked

kronckew · 21st May 2020, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword
fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked

Yup, it at least appears to have no fake unit, armoury, acceptance or mfg. stamps.

asomotif · 23rd May 2020, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword
fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked

This sword is not an exsisting pattern sword, so in that respect you are right, and it is not a fake.
It does however pretend to be old by the aging of the metal.

I did not check all the sold items but I will be surprised if one of them was offered as "modern crafted souvernir sword".

The few that I found were all offered pretending to be something old and rare :
- WWII gilted GENDARMERIE ROYALE SWORD sharp blade saber
- GENDARMERIE ROYALE SWORD WWII SINO-JAPANESE WAR
- WW2 period French Gendarmerie Royale sword & scabbard
- Vintage Gendarmerie Royale Sword-RARE
- Japan Occupied China WWII police sword
- 18th Century WW2 Japanese Sword Asian Antique Old Iron Knife Carving w/ Mark

Best regards,

14th May 2020, 11:40 PM	#1
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Identification help Hi guys long time no post. I just recently picked this up. not sure if it's a fake or real. It seems to be from around WW2 time frame, has Japanese markings but the writing on the blade seems to come from Morocco. Any help on identification is appreciated. Attached Images Last edited by clockwork; 15th May 2020 at 01:29 AM.

15th May 2020, 01:46 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Moroccan Gendarmerie Check here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...an_Gendarmerie Stu

16th May 2020, 08:24 AM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	And another from a different auction site. Listed as WWII Sino-Japanese War. This one has the same "chrysanthemum" motifs on the scabbard. Basket hilt is different however, and lower quality cast brass on hilt. . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 16th May 2020 at 02:34 PM.

16th May 2020, 08:48 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	A third example ... And another one on Worthpoint here. Each of the three examples I've shown were considered the auction sites to be of French manufacture and made during approximately the WWII period. Each site advertised it as an unusual sword. It would seem that the French either made it for other nations or others copied them. Clockwork, if no further information is forthcoming here, I'll move it over to the European forum where you might get a more detailed response. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 16th May 2020 at 02:36 PM.

16th May 2020, 07:51 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Folks, I would argue with that auction attribution of their example being Japanese. They are confusing their example with the traditional WWII parade and police swords of Japan during that era. What says "French" to me is not only the blade and the inscription, but this section (circled in red) that I have seen on French made examples: Attached Images

15th May 2020, 12:19 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It would be very helpful to see the sword in its entirety. The flowers are not Chrysanthemums which are usually depicted on Japanese weapons.

15th May 2020, 01:30 AM	#3
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	just added 2 more pics.

15th May 2020, 04:32 AM	#6
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	it's a nice piece just wish i could find out more about it.

15th May 2020, 02:04 PM	#7
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 374	May be "Gendarmerie royale khmère du Cambodge"? https://www.force-publique.net/sourc...mbodge-fr.html

16th May 2020, 10:06 AM	#11
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Thank you. I suspected it was of FrenchDesign all along. Just was not sure with the flower motifs. Which resemble my Japanese Police sword from around the same period. Google search of the name leaned towards Morocco. I was also suspect from the similar designs on the other sword which seem to have more providence than this design. In another forum From 10+ years ago it talked about mass produced fakes from China.but was unable to see the pics on it. here is the link. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.20796.html. I hope to find out more and do thank all you.

17th May 2020, 09:50 PM	#13
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I am amazed about the quality of the example in post 8, but in general this sword makes me think of : made in the PRC They like to combine styles and inscriptions and sell everything as ww2 japanese. just my 2 cents.

18th May 2020, 02:15 AM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Clockwork: As mentioned above, I'm moving this one over to the European Forum where you might get a clearer answer as to whether this is a French sword or a Chinese creation. Ian.

18th May 2020, 02:26 AM	#15
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Moderator's Comment: Help identifying this sword Gents: This sword was posted in the Ethnographic Forum for identification. It is of European style, and the inscription (GENDARMERIE ROYALE) is an obvious allusion to a possible French origin. However, a number of members have noted the Oriental motif (Chrysanthemum) on the cast brass elements, not typically in the Japanese style, leading to an alternative view that this may be a Chinese creation of the mid- to late-20th C. Several examples of similar swords have been culled from the web to indicate that it is not a unique specimen. Different hilt styles are observed, with some examples being of poorer quality than the topic of this thread. We are referring the sword to the European Armoury Forum for an opinion as to whether it has French origins or is a Chinese fantasy or knock off. Ian

18th May 2020, 03:16 AM	#16
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	A definite fantasy sword most likely Chinese made. So many details and main parts inaccurately portrayed. I don't know where to start, the lettering is amateurish, the quality very low and nothing points to the sword as being from any pattern.The "patina" alone points to a chemical wash. Many sand casting flaws and non descript designs. Few swords are found with their leather blade washers and fantasy swords typically have poor quality leather washers as these do. One auction describes the sword as: "French Gendarmerie Royale Sword with brass two bar and dish back hilt. Decorated floral back strap. Complete with its steel scabbard with decorative brass ring mounts. Steel blade with remains of ?GENDARMERIE ROYALE? wording." When one struggles to describe such swords, the above description is what you get. Auctioneers stay clear of describing these as authentic swords. Some auctioneers will tell you low bid start price tells bidders the item is a copy/fake. Last edited by Will M; 18th May 2020 at 03:39 AM.

18th May 2020, 06:59 AM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Also: The abrupt 'point' looks very fake Chinesey. As does the blade lettering. They are fairly well known for fairly good chemical 'aging'. Bit too uniform tho. I'd expect a better cartouche, font, and gold lettering like this Gendarmarie Royale du Canada (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) Junior Officers sword: (not mine) Attached Images

19th May 2020, 10:12 AM	#18
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Thank you all for the help.

21st May 2020, 03:44 PM	#19
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	without a doubt, this is a modern crafted souvenir sword fake it when something is faked, but in this case, nothing is faked