Bullets and blades

Ian · 17th March 2005, 09:36 PM

... occasionally clash. Here's another barung that ended up on the losing side of that argument. It could have just been target practice or testing a 1911 to see if it really could penetrate all the way through a blade. Maybe it was wielded by a juramentado who was fired upon at close range.

Amputating the kakatua from the end of the hilt might have enabled the weapon to be more easily concealed, and drawn without hooking on clothing. I have heard tales about removing the kakatua to enhance the use of a barung as a concealed weapon.

If only these blades could tell us what they went through.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7307135650

Bill · 17th March 2005, 09:58 PM

there was likely a number of rounds fired even after the opponent went down, but I think most would be grazing shots, this one looks like target practice.

capt.smash · 17th March 2005, 10:00 PM

LOL i saw this also i hope the owner wasnt wearing it at the time

shows the power of a bullet though,no protection hideing behind car doors or upturned tables like in the films

Rick · 17th March 2005, 10:10 PM

Some bullets don't always get through a tough Moro blade .

Yannis · 17th March 2005, 10:16 PM

A shashka that passed from my hands had this “wound”. It is very possible that happened from a bullet. A bladesmith had patched it later, with different kind of steel, and he did excellent job.

Federico · 17th March 2005, 10:46 PM

Disturbing enough, I remember this barong being sold the first time round, I dont remember there being mention of a bullet whole, nor picture of one. I hope my memory is just playing games with me.

Andrew · 17th March 2005, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Disturbing enough, I remember this barong being sold the first time round, I dont remember there being mention of a bullet whole, nor picture of one. I hope my memory is just playing games with me.

That is disturbing. And would explain the placement and apparant precision of the hole...

zelbone · 18th March 2005, 03:14 AM

Interesting...

I might contact the new owner of this particular barong and compare notes. I did show him a barong of mine which suffered a similar fate. I wonder if this had any influence on him picking up this particular piece. You folks might remember my barong in this old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000872.html

Rick · 18th March 2005, 03:19 AM

Hi Zel , the buyer is registered as a member here in fact .

Maybe he will respond to a PM or to this post .

Bill · 18th March 2005, 05:49 AM

the one on ebay has a pretty big hole in it. .45 is a low velocity round, very unlikely would it be able to go through the blade, but I am pretty sure no one could hold onto a barung hit by one & the bullet would likely would already start to tumble. A number of large caliber, high velocity rounds could do it, but I think it would have to be firmly placed against a tree so that the bullet could not take it with it. Not sure but I think this one maybe what someone was trying to create. I think the bullet hit, lower right area of the damage, that area is slighty concaved. Bullet fragmented causing the rest of the damage. Not a forging flaw, the steel is fracture slightly right & above the damage, hard to see with the poor pic. If it is indeed a bullet the swordsman did have the edge pointing towards the shooter, slightly cocked.

Ian · 18th March 2005, 06:30 AM

Federico:

What is it about this one that you recognize from previously? Was it the hilt? I felt that I had seen a similar example before but not with a hole in the blade.

I thought some people might think this one had been doctored. That was my first thought too. We may never know if it has. But that hole is awefully neat and a direct hit from close range with the blade up against something substantial or at least fixed firmly. Not easy to see how it might have occurred during the course of a battle. But, then again ...

How about a .44 magnum Bill?

Bill · 18th March 2005, 07:15 AM

think .44 mag would do that & that wasn't around then. The exit hole is perfect, solid flat hit

Federico · 18th March 2005, 09:24 AM

Well what I remembered about this one, was that I followed the original auction, to later see it relisted in this auction (meaning once the item ended ebay had the note it had been relisted). For the original, I didnt see anything particularly exciting about the barong, and found the whole Datu line to be amusing. I am hoping that I was just not that observant the first time around. But well the first time around, there was absolutely no interest in this well labelled piece, and while my memory and observation skills are not the best, I cant help but be worried. Anyways, I hope I am wrong, but having never seen such precice damage before I am worried.

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 02:55 PM

You know, I've felt this concern the whole time we've discussed this topic; that is very very dangerous if there comes to be any benefit, aura of adventure, stink of blood, desireability to a bullet-struck sword, and unfurtuneately I think there is, because some soul less piece of nothing is going to shoot a hole in an old sword to help sell it. Now, young foolish people clanking old swords because "that's what they're for"

or to get that "cool used look" for their own childish amusement is bad enough (and they usually are children who do this), but to wreak deliberate damage in order to tell a false tale of woe.....it's a bit like if a lawyer wasn't an ambulance chaser (too bad a good or loyal one never chased any of mine) but was setting up auto collisions and permanently injuring people just to create a business oportunity (come to think of it this does happen). It's just so way too bad that there is no limit to human intelligence nor stupidity; love nor evil; and any thing, no matter how off the wall, that you can think of, some idiot will do, and unfortuneately he may just be out there, listening for that dumb idea he's crazy enough to do and too stupid to come up with on his own...........
What horrible creatures there are

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 03:07 PM

Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay?
Bill, I can't see the other surrounding crack you're talking about (as you predicted), but I don't know that it rules out a forging flaw; the raggedness of this hole does not seem consistent with a bullet, and it's overall shape is consistent with a type of flaw I see occur fairly often right where this one may be; at the division between edge steel and body steel on pinched in or sandwiched edges. they sometimes seem puffed out, as if some impurity had become gaseous and exploded during forging????? Also, I don't think a bullet would penetrate at that angle; it might well make a dent, but I don't think it would bite in.....
In the art museum in Philadelphia is a 17th c. armour of the grand duke of Lithuania. In the chest without explanation is a smallish ragged hole; anyone know what that is; weird bullet hole? Corrosion from the back?

Ian · 18th March 2005, 03:09 PM

Did anyone else notice the seller registered with eBay in the last 30 days and has zero feedback? He has no selling history to check whether this blade was offered previously. Hmmmmm .....

Bill · 18th March 2005, 04:58 PM

Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

BSMStar · 18th March 2005, 07:20 PM

I am no expert... here is my two cents worth. It appears the blade was backed by wood (like a 2X4) and shot with a rifle round (due to the kinetics and caliber, I think a 1911 would ding or shatter the blade before penetration... too big - too slow). It definitely appears to have been done deliberately (not due to combat... its too clean). I hope I did not spend more than my two cents.

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

What if this: What if there were a cold shut inside the blade, and then later it got smacked with something small and hard-hitting (gotta admit a bullet is as good a candidate as I can come up with) on its surface at that particular area, knocking a hole out of the layer over the cold-shut, and further fracturing some more of it; possible I guess. The surface in the crater looks raggedy; not like bullet damage, really, so that and its overall jagged shape are what I'm trying to account for.

Rick · 19th March 2005, 01:26 AM

A shrapnel wound perhaps ?

Yannis · 19th March 2005, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay?

Tom,
It is a plug. I believe that is after market because I cant imagine a bladesmith selling this blade as new. If it was a fault so big (about 2.5 inches) an average bladesmith would throw this blade away.
I don’t know if it was a bullet or something else that done such damage to this blade. What I know is that the patch is excellent work.

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 02:07 PM

Actually the typical traditional smith never throws away a piece of steel or iron; he may entirely re-forge it, he may alloy it with other metal to dilute properties he doesn't like, he may use tiny scraps and filings to make rust slurry for patination, but he doesn't throw iron away; in fact he buys other people's broken iron junk to use for reforging. Now, a large cold shut in a blade's core could become exposed during grinding to finish the groove (though it was likely forged in to some extent), and at that point I can easily see an old time nomad smith looking down at this huge piece of steel, made and shaped with such difficulty, and perhaps even wanted in a hurry, and deciding to repair the piece instead of reforging it. Would such action be considered of the highest ethical or artistic standards? Perhaps not, though it is a saying among craftsmen that a real craftsman isn't one who doesn't screw up, but one who knows how to fix it when he does, and it's a sliding scale; you don't start over for just any tiny error; you have to draw a line somewhere; different people in different circumstances draw different lines. I've seen blades with cold-shuts exposed by the grinding, or some at the forged surface, where no repair, filling, or concealment of any kind was undertaken; the blade was made that way, sold that way, and went out into the world that way. It's not incredibly uncommon, actually.

Spunjer · 19th March 2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

I am no expert... here is my two cents worth. It appears the blade was backed by wood (like a 2X4) and shot with a rifle round (due to the kinetics and caliber, I think a 1911 would ding or shatter the blade before penetration... too big - too slow). It definitely appears to have been done deliberately (not due to combat... its too clean). I hope I did not spend more than my two cents.

bsmstar, i concur with you. i'm not much of a ballistic expert, but when i was in the army, i saw a demo where a kevlar helmet was shot with both a 45cal and an m-16. on the 45, the helmet was knocked off but barely made any damage, while the m-16, the helmet barely moved, but it went right thru (perfectly round hole on the entry, like the barong pictured above, while the back looked like shredded spaghetti...).

Yannis · 19th March 2005, 03:12 PM

Tom,
I agree with any word you wrote, except the “nomad smith”. This is 19th – early 20th century Caucasian shashka and there were well established smiths

I dint mean really throw to the garbage but throw back to the scrap material.

BSMStar · 21st March 2005, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

bsmstar, i concur with you. i'm not much of a ballistic expert, but when i was in the army, i saw a demo where a kevlar helmet was shot with both a 45cal and an m-16. on the 45, the helmet was knocked off but barely made any damage, while the m-16, the helmet barely moved, but it went right thru (perfectly round hole on the entry, like the barong pictured above, while the back looked like shredded spaghetti...).

Hi Spunjer,

I have had similar experiences...

At point of impact, there isn't any contour at entry (its not concave) so I have to assume that is was reinforced or backed. On exit, it shredded the steel (a lot of kinetics for clean entry- jagged exit on forged steel), not done by a slower pistol round. The hole is perpendicular, not that common of an event in a random world of combat... I would expect to see some angle to the entry (unless it was "lined up"), which made me take a closer look. But maybe I've been watching too much CSI.

Bill M · 21st March 2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Zel , the buyer is registered as a member here in fact .

Maybe he will respond to a PM or to this post .

He also bought

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517080985

I don't understand. However I have a few pieces, bought because they were very strange or bad in case I ever write a book and have a chapter called "Keris gone wrong." This moro above would fit there. I don't know the buyer, but I am sure that he had his reasons for buying these.

Like I did when I got the keris below. (Keris gone wrong)

Paid less than $50. Wife grabbed it for her kitchen gallery. I thought that it was tourist junk, but one of the respected Forum members, who comes from Indonesia visited me and said that it was really "customized" by a Batak for his own use.

I thought it was "customized" for Tourist sale. It even has a little rattan hanging loop. You can see it right behind the handle.

I dunno, still looks strange to me. Blade is not bad, but don't fee like posting it. Personal reasons. Happy to send pix by private mail Comments?

Bill M · 22nd March 2005, 07:39 PM

OK, Ian opened this topic. Just have to let y'all know about another bullet riddled item. With 51 bids and $280 closing price I feel like getting out my shotgun and raising some prices on some otherwise junk.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6750430437

Seriously, I can't believe that people bid on this.

Ian · 23rd March 2005, 06:08 PM

But, Bill, it appeared on TV -- in Australia. It MUST be worth a lot if it's been shown on TV.

zamboanga · 5th May 2005, 06:12 AM

Got this pic on the net.

Are those bullet marks in the barong? i can see at least two.

Ian · 5th May 2005, 07:02 AM

Could be, but hard to say with such a small image.

BTW, that is an unusually large barung and hardly qualifies as a concealed weapon -- wonder how he got close enough to do any damage without being detected carrying such an obvious weapon.

17th March 2005, 09:36 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Bullets and blades ... occasionally clash. Here's another barung that ended up on the losing side of that argument. It could have just been target practice or testing a 1911 to see if it really could penetrate all the way through a blade. Maybe it was wielded by a juramentado who was fired upon at close range. Amputating the kakatua from the end of the hilt might have enabled the weapon to be more easily concealed, and drawn without hooking on clothing. I have heard tales about removing the kakatua to enhance the use of a barung as a concealed weapon. If only these blades could tell us what they went through. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7307135650

17th March 2005, 10:10 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Well ....... Some bullets don't always get through a tough Moro blade . Attached Images

17th March 2005, 10:16 PM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	A shashka that passed from my hands had this “wound”. It is very possible that happened from a bullet. A bladesmith had patched it later, with different kind of steel, and he did excellent job. Attached Images

18th March 2005, 05:49 AM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	the one on ebay has a pretty big hole in it. .45 is a low velocity round, very unlikely would it be able to go through the blade, but I am pretty sure no one could hold onto a barung hit by one & the bullet would likely would already start to tumble. A number of large caliber, high velocity rounds could do it, but I think it would have to be firmly placed against a tree so that the bullet could not take it with it. Not sure but I think this one maybe what someone was trying to create. I think the bullet hit, lower right area of the damage, that area is slighty concaved. Bullet fragmented causing the rest of the damage. Not a forging flaw, the steel is fracture slightly right & above the damage, hard to see with the poor pic. If it is indeed a bullet the swordsman did have the edge pointing towards the shooter, slightly cocked. Attached Images

18th March 2005, 02:55 PM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	You know, I've felt this concern the whole time we've discussed this topic; that is very very dangerous if there comes to be any benefit, aura of adventure, stink of blood, desireability to a bullet-struck sword, and unfurtuneately I think there is, because some soul less piece of nothing is going to shoot a hole in an old sword to help sell it. Now, young foolish people clanking old swords because "that's what they're for" or to get that "cool used look" for their own childish amusement is bad enough (and they usually are children who do this), but to wreak deliberate damage in order to tell a false tale of woe.....it's a bit like if a lawyer wasn't an ambulance chaser (too bad a good or loyal one never chased any of mine) but was setting up auto collisions and permanently injuring people just to create a business oportunity (come to think of it this does happen). It's just so way too bad that there is no limit to human intelligence nor stupidity; love nor evil; and any thing, no matter how off the wall, that you can think of, some idiot will do, and unfortuneately he may just be out there, listening for that dumb idea he's crazy enough to do and too stupid to come up with on his own........... What horrible creatures there are Last edited by tom hyle; 19th March 2005 at 12:11 AM.

17th March 2005, 09:58 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	there was likely a number of rounds fired even after the opponent went down, but I think most would be grazing shots, this one looks like target practice.

17th March 2005, 10:00 PM	#3
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	LOL i saw this also i hope the owner wasnt wearing it at the time shows the power of a bullet though,no protection hideing behind car doors or upturned tables like in the films

17th March 2005, 10:46 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Disturbing enough, I remember this barong being sold the first time round, I dont remember there being mention of a bullet whole, nor picture of one. I hope my memory is just playing games with me.

18th March 2005, 03:14 AM	#8
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Interesting... I might contact the new owner of this particular barong and compare notes. I did show him a barong of mine which suffered a similar fate. I wonder if this had any influence on him picking up this particular piece. You folks might remember my barong in this old thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000872.html

18th March 2005, 03:19 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Zel , the buyer is registered as a member here in fact . Maybe he will respond to a PM or to this post .

18th March 2005, 06:30 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Federico: What is it about this one that you recognize from previously? Was it the hilt? I felt that I had seen a similar example before but not with a hole in the blade. I thought some people might think this one had been doctored. That was my first thought too. We may never know if it has. But that hole is awefully neat and a direct hit from close range with the blade up against something substantial or at least fixed firmly. Not easy to see how it might have occurred during the course of a battle. But, then again ... How about a .44 magnum Bill?

18th March 2005, 07:15 AM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	think .44 mag would do that & that wasn't around then. The exit hole is perfect, solid flat hit

18th March 2005, 09:24 AM	#13
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Well what I remembered about this one, was that I followed the original auction, to later see it relisted in this auction (meaning once the item ended ebay had the note it had been relisted). For the original, I didnt see anything particularly exciting about the barong, and found the whole Datu line to be amusing. I am hoping that I was just not that observant the first time around. But well the first time around, there was absolutely no interest in this well labelled piece, and while my memory and observation skills are not the best, I cant help but be worried. Anyways, I hope I am wrong, but having never seen such precice damage before I am worried.

18th March 2005, 03:07 PM	#15
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay? Bill, I can't see the other surrounding crack you're talking about (as you predicted), but I don't know that it rules out a forging flaw; the raggedness of this hole does not seem consistent with a bullet, and it's overall shape is consistent with a type of flaw I see occur fairly often right where this one may be; at the division between edge steel and body steel on pinched in or sandwiched edges. they sometimes seem puffed out, as if some impurity had become gaseous and exploded during forging????? Also, I don't think a bullet would penetrate at that angle; it might well make a dent, but I don't think it would bite in..... In the art museum in Philadelphia is a 17th c. armour of the grand duke of Lithuania. In the chest without explanation is a smallish ragged hole; anyone know what that is; weird bullet hole? Corrosion from the back? Last edited by tom hyle; 18th March 2005 at 03:14 PM. Reason: removing gratuitous though well deserved commentary on Philadelphia

18th March 2005, 03:09 PM	#16
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Is this a red flag? Did anyone else notice the seller registered with eBay in the last 30 days and has zero feedback? He has no selling history to check whether this blade was offered previously. Hmmmmm .....

18th March 2005, 04:58 PM	#17
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

18th March 2005, 07:20 PM	#18
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I am no expert... here is my two cents worth. It appears the blade was backed by wood (like a 2X4) and shot with a rifle round (due to the kinetics and caliber, I think a 1911 would ding or shatter the blade before penetration... too big - too slow). It definitely appears to have been done deliberately (not due to combat... its too clean). I hope I did not spend more than my two cents.

19th March 2005, 01:26 AM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	A shrapnel wound perhaps ? Attached Images

19th March 2005, 02:07 PM	#22
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually the typical traditional smith never throws away a piece of steel or iron; he may entirely re-forge it, he may alloy it with other metal to dilute properties he doesn't like, he may use tiny scraps and filings to make rust slurry for patination, but he doesn't throw iron away; in fact he buys other people's broken iron junk to use for reforging. Now, a large cold shut in a blade's core could become exposed during grinding to finish the groove (though it was likely forged in to some extent), and at that point I can easily see an old time nomad smith looking down at this huge piece of steel, made and shaped with such difficulty, and perhaps even wanted in a hurry, and deciding to repair the piece instead of reforging it. Would such action be considered of the highest ethical or artistic standards? Perhaps not, though it is a saying among craftsmen that a real craftsman isn't one who doesn't screw up, but one who knows how to fix it when he does, and it's a sliding scale; you don't start over for just any tiny error; you have to draw a line somewhere; different people in different circumstances draw different lines. I've seen blades with cold-shuts exposed by the grinding, or some at the forged surface, where no repair, filling, or concealment of any kind was undertaken; the blade was made that way, sold that way, and went out into the world that way. It's not incredibly uncommon, actually.

19th March 2005, 03:12 PM	#24
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Tom, I agree with any word you wrote, except the “nomad smith”. This is 19th – early 20th century Caucasian shashka and there were well established smiths I dint mean really throw to the garbage but throw back to the scrap material.

22nd March 2005, 07:39 PM	#27
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Bullets and computers? OK, Ian opened this topic. Just have to let y'all know about another bullet riddled item. With 51 bids and $280 closing price I feel like getting out my shotgun and raising some prices on some otherwise junk. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6750430437 Seriously, I can't believe that people bid on this.

23rd March 2005, 06:08 PM	#28
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	But, Bill, it appeared on TV -- in Australia. It MUST be worth a lot if it's been shown on TV.

5th May 2005, 06:12 AM	#29
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Got this pic on the net. Are those bullet marks in the barong? i can see at least two. Attached Images

5th May 2005, 07:02 AM	#30
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Could be, but hard to say with such a small image. BTW, that is an unusually large barung and hardly qualifies as a concealed weapon -- wonder how he got close enough to do any damage without being detected carrying such an obvious weapon.