Ottoman Balkan Miquelet muskets

[Cerjak]

Ottoman Balkan Miquelet muskets
Two nice examples of Ottoman Balkan Miquelet 'Boyliya' musket with mother of pearl and micromosaic inlay and one Ottoman Turkish Tufek Musket.
These 3 muskets had been already discussed but the previous photos were of poor quality it ‘s why today I post this new set of pictures.
Any comment on it will be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

[Cerjak]

more pics

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

more pics

Hi Cerjak,

I'm sure that you have seen the name of the gunmaker and the date.
They are yours??
Are you sure that you need two Boyliya?

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Cerjak,

I'm sure that you have seen the name of the gunmaker and the date.
Hi Kubur,
Yes Kubur Atlanta and Dom already did this job.
They are yours??
yes of course
Are you sure that you need two Boyliya?
yes you are right I need more than 2 !

[rickystl]

Hi Cerjak.

Thank you for posting these updated photos. Those Boyliyas are beautiful. And in very nice condition. Even with a slight variation in decoration, you can see the general pattern for the Boyliya being very similar. And notice the butt stocks made in two pieces. I remember in the earlier posts discussing the diiferent theories for the two-piece butt stocks on many Ottoman style guns.

I notice this Tufuk musket has the extra short butt stock, but a full length barrel. Some thought these guns originally had longer butt stocks that may have been damaged and repaired leaving it short, requiring it to be shot from the cheek, Japanese matchlock style. But I've never thought this to be true. I've seen too many examples of the Tufuk made this way. Still not sure why.

Anyway, very nice pieces ALL !!! I still do not have a Boyliya in my collection.

Rick

[Oliver Pinchot]

The tufek is absolutely missing the butt.

[Cerjak]

Hi Rick and Olivier,
Thank you for your comment.
Some better pictures.
Best cerjak

[Cerjak]

Hi Rick and Olivier,
Thank you for your comment.
Some better pictures.
Best cerjak

[rickystl]

Hi Cerjak.

Thanks for the additional photos. That helps a bunch.
To me, this gun with the short butt stock was made this way. The brass decoration and bone butt cap at the heel of the stock all look correct. If a rear portion of the butt stock were damaged, or otherwise missing, it would be little effort to simply add the new wood and re-install the bone butt cap. But I have seen photos and held many that were obviously made short this way.
I had the thought that the short butt stock might might allow the shooter to fire from the waist area while on horseback ala blunderbuss knee pistol style. Which I guess could be done. But then, there would be no need for a rear sight. And the pistol would be a much handier weapon on horseback. My only conclusion at present is that they were made for aiming/firing from the cheek, with the arms taking the recoil vs the shoulder. Just my best guess.

Although not as nice as Cerjak's, here is another example with the short butt stock.

Rick

[Kubur]

I'm shared on this one.
Like Rick, I have seen many tufek with short butts.
And I have no problem with that.
My problem is the bone butt cap, it looks more recent to me and badly cut.
I think it's a replacement.
I post mine and the funny thing is the last barrel band.
They reused an old engraving of a ship, most probably from Ottoman naval forces.

[Cerjak]

Rick

See This one who need a good restauration .
You can see easily That the butt stock is made of several pieces.
Best
cerjak

[ariel]

Can you specify using the very first picture which one is dated?
And any dates/ signatures on the other two?
Thanks.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I'm shared on this one.
Like Rick, I have seen many tufek with short butts.
And I have no problem with that.
My problem is the bone butt cap, it looks more recent to me and badly cut.
I think it's a replacement.
I post mine and the funny thing is the last barrel band.
They reused an old engraving of a ship, most probably from Ottoman naval forces.

Hi Kubur.

The butt cap may indeed be a later replacemnt. It does seem a bit crude and not up to the typical standard.
That barrel band is interesting. They usually have just a small amount of generic decoration. It does look like the band may have been made from from a brass piece that was originally used with something else. Very neat.

By the way. In your travels, have you ever seen those small, round, brass mosaic pieces for sale anywhere ?

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Rick

See This one who need a good restauration .
You can see easily That the butt stock is made of several pieces.
Best
cerjak

Hi Cerjak

Ohhhh........yes, that one would need a lot of restoration. For ME, that would be a perfect "parts" gun to keep on hand for restoring others.

But yes. As you mention the shoulder length Tufuck butt stocks were made in at least two sections. And everyone I've seen were made this way. Except, the short grip variation mentioned above. One reason I believe the shoulder length butt stock was made as a seperate piece was to accomodate the desired LOP for the individual owner. This would allow a shorter or longer LOP for a different owner by just shortening or adding wood to the stock at a future time. Of course, thats just one theory of mine.

What I have noticed in handling and measuring many of these Tufucks, the LOP on the shoulder length stocks measure about 12" (30.5cm) and the short butt stocks are about 8" (20.3cm). And this seems consistant with each one I've measured.

Rick

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by ariel

Can you specify using the very first picture which one is dated?
And any dates/ signatures on the other two?
Thanks.

Ariel

Only this one is with signature and date.

best
CERJAK

[rickystl]

Hi Cerjak.

Have you ever noticed, that the long guns will occassionlly be signed and/or dated. But the pistols seldom are. I find this curious.

Rick.

[qusko]

Adding images of long Balkan musket. It's very similar to long boyliya rifles but with Albanian lock. Do you have some suggestions about more detailed origin?

Barrel stamped with M in crown.

[rickystl]

Hello ALL.

Glad this Thread was bumped forward from a couple years ago with part of the discussion about the excessively short butt stocks you see on some of the Ottoman long guns. And to whether or not the short butt stocks were made this way, or if they originally had a longer section of wood making them true shoulder length. I've never really believed they were originally made short. The added butt caps weather bone, brass, etc.I believe are a 20th Century addition to cover up for a missing butt section.
Notice the tufek I posted above with the short butt stock with a brass plate nailed on the end. I planed on making this gun into a shooter, and did so by adding a new steel liner inside the original barrel, new front sight, tuned lock, etc. But I just couldn't phantom shooting this gun with the short butt stock.
So I got in touch with fellow Forum member Philip Tom and asked if he would be interested in the project of adding a new butt section as per the original. Fortunately for me Philip responded in the positive. During this restoration it would also answer the question as to weather there was originally a longer butt section when the gun was originally built. Sure enough, once Philip removed the brass butt cap the evidence was there with holes in the stock showing that the gun had an original longer section.
I sent Philip the gun stock and a big chunk of European walnut (actually two pieces glued together). Philip did a masterful job restoring the butt stock. Could not have been an easy job with the unusual shape of Ottoman rear butt sections. But the job turned out just great. (THANK YOU PHILIP!!) Here are some updated pics of the now finished, and ready to shoot Tufek. Still a bit of an ugly duck with that sliver of wood missing from the right, rear fore stock. But noting I can do about that. Still happy with the outcome.

Rick

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by qusko

Adding images of long Balkan musket. It's very similar to long boyliya rifles but with Albanian lock. Do you have some suggestions about more detailed origin?

Barrel stamped with M in crown.

More I look at your gun, more I think that you are right the wooden stock is from a Boliya or Bulgarian style, the lock is Albanian and all the decoration is Ottoman Turkish.
I have a book on Ottoman Bulgarian weapons I will try to find it.
So your gun should be from the borders in between Bulgaria and Turkey or even all the pieces were brought to modern days Turkey. And then the gun was mounted there.
The barrel should be Italian but I don't recognise this face.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by rickystl

I've never really believed they were originally made short. The added butt caps weather bone, brass, etc.I believe are a 20th Century addition to cover up for a missing butt section.

Sure enough, once Philip removed the brass butt cap the evidence was there with holes in the stock showing that the gun had an original longer section.

Rick

Philip's work is wonderful.
But this time I disagree with you Rick.
Many Ottoman guns had very short butts, not even in Museums but also on old engravings.
Then the holes that you found don't prove that your gun had a long butt but it just proves that a but plate was missing, maybe wood, ivory or other...

All the best,
Kubur