Middle Eastern Knife??

templarnight · 18th February 2013, 05:59 PM

Hi.
Im trying to pin down this Dagger. Any ideas?
I thought maybe Eastern Europe but Im not sure.

trenchwarfare · 18th February 2013, 10:59 PM

Possibly Georgian? Has a destinct military look to it.

templarnight · 19th February 2013, 09:49 AM

Yes I think thats a possibility.

I wonder if anyone could help with the translation?

David R · 19th February 2013, 11:47 PM

It looks Indian made to me, etched decoration and Arabic writing on the ricasso, the star symbol very like the Wilkinson sword quality mark. Well made with no great age to it, but a nice piece all the same.

NovelsRus · 20th February 2013, 08:16 PM

Hi, Templar,
Yes, I agree with David on this one, as the scrollwork and lettering are very similar to that found on several of my own, Indian daggers and sabers. Most of mine have turned out to be tourist items from the mid-20th century, though I have managed to collect a couple of genuine kukhris. Still, nothing wrong with your dagger, and by no means am I implying it's a tourist piece, only that the markings are similar to the ones on my Indian daggers. Looks like a solid, beautiful weapon to me.

Dom · 22nd February 2013, 04:01 PM

Good Day, allow me to be an disturbance element

Sorry Gentlemen (David R & NovelsRus)
you are agreed on the fact that the scrollwork and lettering are
very similar to that found on several, Indian daggers and sabers

but you seems have ignored that,
also, it's concerning Syrian daggers from Golan Mountains; the "Magdali"

David has mentioned that; "star symbol very like the Wilkinson sword quality mark" ... YES

but before, long time before Wilkinson

this symbol was
- Salomon seal, for Yiddish
- Soliman seal, for Muslims

it's a "TALISMANIC" mark ... before a "quality mark"

it's supposed, to banish the bad eye, far away from his possessor

here, some pics about "Magdali",
for "Soliman seal" I have some Islamic talismanic bowls engraved with some time,
on both side (inside/outside), and are Ottomans, have been presented here

for me this dagger, could be Syrian, 20th century ... modern version for "Magdali"

all the best

à +

Dom

Dom · 22nd February 2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by templarnight

I wonder if anyone could help with the translation?

HERE WE ARE

NARS MIN ALLAH WA FATUM KARIB
either
VICTORY FROM ALLAH, AND INVASION SOON
regards

à +

Dom

David · 22nd February 2013, 05:59 PM

Forgive me Dom, but you seem to be basing you assumption of origin solely on the Arabic inscription (which makes no case for origin) and completely ignoring the form of this dagger and it's dress which is nothing like the Syrian "Magdali" daggers you posted. This dagger uses completely different materials and takes on a completely different form. I cannot see how you came to your conclusion from this evidence.

Dom · 22nd February 2013, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

This dagger uses completely different materials and takes on a completely different form. I cannot see how you came to your conclusion from this evidence.

you are absolutely forgiven

I wrote; "for me this dagger, could be Syrian, 20th century ... modern version for "Magdali"

- the scripts as you may compare, are enough near
- the "Soliman" seal, is more "Arab" than something else, in this contexte

if I put a picture for daggers, it was to illustrate the origin of "ricassos" proposed
not to compare them daggers, that would have been a "nonsense" at evidence,
they don't have similitude, others than I mentioned

best regards

à +

Dom

ariel · 22nd February 2013, 06:23 PM

I suspect it is indeed a Wilkinson blade, but heavily re-shaped: shortened and converted into a dagger. Look at the etched area : the closer to the tip, the more narrow it gets, to the point that very close to the tip it runs off onto the edge.
The overall construction reminds me of Balkan renditions of a Kindjal, with a lot of brass on the handle, handguard etc. Trench art ? Too sophisticated... And the scabbard is very well made. Looks like a professional job, either intended for real use or souvenir-ish.

Dom · 22nd February 2013, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me Dom, but you seem to be basing you assumption of origin solely on the Arabic inscription (which makes no case for origin

by the way ...
while my translator provides translations for all requests
the ricassos of my two "magdalis" although written in Arabic alphabet
are still not translated

because it is not Arabic language, dialect used must be "Druze"
but in the specific case of this dagger who important to us
this is "an extract from Holy Koran, it is (MUST) in Arabic

actually, I share your point of view;
- the written language is not always a proof of origin, just an index

therefore, it is not the language that influenced me

à +

Dom

David · 22nd February 2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

you are absolutely forgiven

I wrote; "for me this dagger, could be Syrian, 20th century ... modern version for "Magdali"

- the scripts as you may compare, are enough near
- the "Soliman" seal, is more "Arab" than something else, in this contexte

if I put a picture for daggers, it was to illustrate the origin of "ricassos" proposed
not to compare them daggers, that would have been a "nonsense" at evidence,
they don't have similitude, others than I mentioned

best regards

à +

Dom

Dom, markings on the ricasso of a blade is pretty common in many cultures. So is the Seal of Solomon. As has been pointed out, it was even used by the very British company of Wilkinson in that very area of their blades. Though i would agree that in combination with the written inscription this blade was no doubt owned at sometime by a Muslim. However, beyond that you reasoning for placing origin in Syria seems completely baseless. This looks nothing like any blades i have ever seen from that area.

A.alnakkas · 22nd February 2013, 06:53 PM

Looks like an Afghan military knife replica.

Dom · 22nd February 2013, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

However, beyond that you reasoning for placing origin in Syria seems completely baseless.

David
are you sure that your word "baseless" ... is "based"??

à +

Dom

David · 22nd February 2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

actually, I share your point of view;
- the written language is not always a proof of origin, just an index

therefore, it is not the language that influenced me

Then what was it that did influence you Dom? The only two points you make are about the writing on the ricasso and the Seal of Solomon.? Care to share, rather than dancing around the question while throwing out rude emoticons. Is there some reason you keep sticking your tongue out at everyone with every post?

David R · 22nd February 2013, 11:22 PM

Photo of ricasso of a Wilkinson 1897, "double triangle", Wilkinson always made the point that it was NOT a star of David, and complained that it had become so well known that it was widely copied. An interesting thread about this is on another "sword specific" forum.

Dom · 23rd February 2013, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Care to share, rather than dancing around the question while throwing out rude emoticons. Is there some reason you keep sticking your tongue out at everyone with every post?

received 5/5, you are a modo, I'll stick to your orders
from now, I'm a spectator. Over

Dom

David · 23rd February 2013, 02:35 AM

No orders here Dom, just friendly suggestions.

broadaxe · 23rd February 2013, 06:55 PM

I believe it is Afghan made dagger for the British/European market. Typical shape and technique.

David R · 23rd February 2013, 07:48 PM

Looking at it again I think it is an "assembleage", blade ground down from an Indian copy of a Wilkinson, and the scabbard furniture, with its brass throat locket and steel chape, from out of the bit box, hilt pieces also from the box. With the standard Islamic invocation on the ricasso I think it aimed at the local market rather than the Western.
A nice item all the same, probably made within the last 30 years or so.

Norman McCormick · 24th February 2013, 10:19 PM

Hi,
This might be worth a look.
Regards,
Norman.

David · 26th February 2013, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
This might be worth a look.
Regards,
Norman.

Geez, it probably is Norm, but this item is for sale and therefore a link to it cannot be posted here...

Norman McCormick · 26th February 2013, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Geez, it probably is Norm, but this item is for sale and therefore a link to it cannot be posted here...

Hi David,
Apologies, so used to using Artzi's site for reference I didn't even see it was for sale.

My Regards,
Norman.

David · 26th February 2013, 03:00 PM

No worries Norm. I do agree that it was a similar example and supposedly from Afghanistan.

DaveA · 28th February 2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by templarnight

Hi.
Im trying to pin down this Dagger. Any ideas?
I thought maybe Eastern Europe but Im not sure.

The deep central fuller is reminiscent of the kindjal, so I'm going with Caucasus region.

David R · 1st March 2013, 06:50 PM

Please Google "1897 patt. British Infantry officers sword". There is little/no doubt that the blade has been ground down from a replica or later Commonwealth issued version (probably Pakistan made) of one of these. The only variation from pattern is the Arabic slogan on the reverse from the double triangle.

18th February 2013, 05:59 PM	#1
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Middle Eastern Knife?? Hi. Im trying to pin down this Dagger. Any ideas? I thought maybe Eastern Europe but Im not sure. Attached Images

20th February 2013, 08:16 PM	#5
NovelsRus Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 41	Agree with David: looks Indian Hi, Templar, Yes, I agree with David on this one, as the scrollwork and lettering are very similar to that found on several of my own, Indian daggers and sabers. Most of mine have turned out to be tourist items from the mid-20th century, though I have managed to collect a couple of genuine kukhris. Still, nothing wrong with your dagger, and by no means am I implying it's a tourist piece, only that the markings are similar to the ones on my Indian daggers. Looks like a solid, beautiful weapon to me.

22nd February 2013, 04:01 PM	#6
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Good Day, allow me to be an disturbance element Sorry Gentlemen (David R & NovelsRus) you are agreed on the fact that the scrollwork and lettering are very similar to that found on several, Indian daggers and sabers but you seems have ignored that, also, it's concerning Syrian daggers from Golan Mountains; the "Magdali" David has mentioned that; "star symbol very like the Wilkinson sword quality mark" ... YES but before, long time before Wilkinson this symbol was - Salomon seal, for Yiddish - Soliman seal, for Muslims it's a "TALISMANIC" mark ... before a "quality mark" it's supposed, to banish the bad eye, far away from his possessor here, some pics about "Magdali", for "Soliman seal" I have some Islamic talismanic bowls engraved with some time, on both side (inside/outside), and are Ottomans, have been presented here for me this dagger, could be Syrian, 20th century ... modern version for "Magdali" all the best à + Dom Attached Images

22nd February 2013, 11:22 PM	#16
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Photo of ricasso of a Wilkinson 1897, "double triangle", Wilkinson always made the point that it was NOT a star of David, and complained that it had become so well known that it was widely copied. An interesting thread about this is on another "sword specific" forum. Attached Images

24th February 2013, 10:19 PM	#21
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, This might be worth a look. Regards, Norman. Last edited by David; 26th February 2013 at 05:05 AM. Reason: item is for sale

18th February 2013, 10:59 PM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Possibly Georgian? Has a destinct military look to it.

19th February 2013, 09:49 AM	#3
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Yes I think thats a possibility. I wonder if anyone could help with the translation?

19th February 2013, 11:47 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It looks Indian made to me, etched decoration and Arabic writing on the ricasso, the star symbol very like the Wilkinson sword quality mark. Well made with no great age to it, but a nice piece all the same.

22nd February 2013, 05:59 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Forgive me Dom, but you seem to be basing you assumption of origin solely on the Arabic inscription (which makes no case for origin) and completely ignoring the form of this dagger and it's dress which is nothing like the Syrian "Magdali" daggers you posted. This dagger uses completely different materials and takes on a completely different form. I cannot see how you came to your conclusion from this evidence.

22nd February 2013, 06:23 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I suspect it is indeed a Wilkinson blade, but heavily re-shaped: shortened and converted into a dagger. Look at the etched area : the closer to the tip, the more narrow it gets, to the point that very close to the tip it runs off onto the edge. The overall construction reminds me of Balkan renditions of a Kindjal, with a lot of brass on the handle, handguard etc. Trench art ? Too sophisticated... And the scabbard is very well made. Looks like a professional job, either intended for real use or souvenir-ish.

22nd February 2013, 06:53 PM	#13
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Looks like an Afghan military knife replica.

23rd February 2013, 02:35 AM	#18
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	No orders here Dom, just friendly suggestions.

23rd February 2013, 06:55 PM	#19
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I believe it is Afghan made dagger for the British/European market. Typical shape and technique.

23rd February 2013, 07:48 PM	#20
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Looking at it again I think it is an "assembleage", blade ground down from an Indian copy of a Wilkinson, and the scabbard furniture, with its brass throat locket and steel chape, from out of the bit box, hilt pieces also from the box. With the standard Islamic invocation on the ricasso I think it aimed at the local market rather than the Western. A nice item all the same, probably made within the last 30 years or so.

26th February 2013, 03:00 PM	#24
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	No worries Norm. I do agree that it was a similar example and supposedly from Afghanistan.

1st March 2013, 06:50 PM	#26
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Please Google "1897 patt. British Infantry officers sword". There is little/no doubt that the blade has been ground down from a replica or later Commonwealth issued version (probably Pakistan made) of one of these. The only variation from pattern is the Arabic slogan on the reverse from the double triangle.