Very Old Arabian Saif

M.carter · 26th May 2006, 03:34 PM

Hello,

The newest addition to my collection. I would like any information you guys have about it, approximate age? When I bought it, the pommel was broken off, and it is very damaged, but a quick superglue job fixed it. The blade measures 28 inches, which is quite short for a saif I must say, as most are over 30. The silver is very oxidised too. May I ask, will polishing the silver back to its shine, devalue the piece? I really would like to, but Im afraid it will lose some value. The hilt slabs have hairline cracks in them, and are of bone or ivory (I cant tell). The edge seems to have been sharpened with a file at some point, but its verrry sharp, razor sharp, touching it gave me a nasty cut on my fingers. The blade profile is very katana like, not a wedge as common on these swords. I must say, this is a very hefty blade, the stoutest Ive seen on a saif. This sword is very well balanced and very well made, only not very well cared for, there was some light pitting and rust in the middle of the blade, which I cleaned off easily, and many other lightly pitted spots. The pommel is very damaged. Im very excited with this sword, as its my first antique ever! Hope you guys can help me with my queries.

M.carter · 26th May 2006, 03:41 PM

More pics:

ariel · 26th May 2006, 04:37 PM

I would see no harm in brightening the silver (not polishing, of course, there are silver cleaning liquids in any supermarket). After all, removing the rust from the blade or putting some Leather Therapy on the scabbard are the necessary components of proper care for a sword.
do you think it is Syrian or Saudi ( general areas)?

IainN · 26th May 2006, 05:26 PM

That's a very interesting blade geometry, I wonder if the experts could weigh in on whether this is common with saifs? Personally I don't recall seeing one before.

Congrats on a very nice piece Mr. Carter, once the antique bug bites it doesn't seem to let go.

Battara · 26th May 2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I would see no harm in brightening the silver (not polishing, of course, there are silver cleaning liquids in any supermarket).

Oh Ariel, I must disagree. Polishing silver is just fine and will increase the value of any piece. However, please, please do not use the silver cleaning liquid solutions - they eat into the silver creating micro-pitting on the surface, making the features no longer crisp and clean.

M.carter · 26th May 2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I would see no harm in brightening the silver (not polishing, of course, there are silver cleaning liquids in any supermarket). After all, removing the rust from the blade or putting some Leather Therapy on the scabbard are the necessary components of proper care for a sword.
do you think it is Syrian or Saudi ( general areas)?

Thanks Ariel, I think I shall polish it up, this sword is definetly saudi, not syrian. However, I need more help on how to polish. Thanks alot for the reply

M.carter · 26th May 2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IainN

That's a very interesting blade geometry, I wonder if the experts could weigh in on whether this is common with saifs? Personally I don't recall seeing one before.

Congrats on a very nice piece Mr. Carter, once the antique bug bites it doesn't seem to let go.

I havent seen one before. All the Nejdi saifs that ive handled have either had a wedge, or a hollow ground cross section, no katana design. This one has an absolute katan design, with the shinogi, shinogi-ji, kissaki, and mune.

Oh yeah, and I think, that that bit me

I have my eyes on a couple of Ottoman sabers already...

M.carter · 26th May 2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh Ariel, I must disagree. Polishing silver is just fine and will increase the value of any piece. However, please, please do not use the silver cleaning liquid solutions - they eat into the silver creating micro-pitting on the surface, making the features no longer crisp and clean.

I currently have the "silvo" silver polishing lube. You say that these lubes are bad, what should i use other than that? Thanks.

kai · 26th May 2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

I currently have the "silvo" silver polishing lube. You say that these lubes are bad, what should i use other than that? Thanks.

Hello Mark,

I believe jeweller's rouge to be a pretty safe bet. I have a similar compound in an boiled linseed oil base which works great to touch up wood and also works nicely on silver and some other materials.

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 27th May 2006, 10:14 PM

Kai is right. IN addition you can also use a jewelers cloth. The liquid "tarn-x" or stuff like that distroy the finish that is there beneath the tarnish.

Michael Blalock · 28th May 2006, 01:36 AM

Nice sword and an unusual blade. Shaped a little like a Japanese sword.

Battara · 28th May 2006, 08:10 PM

One other point regarding cleaning the tarnish off the silver. I had forgotton the name of another soft abrasive that I would recommend first: "Never Dull" which can be googled, then afterwards use a jeweler's cloth (also called a "sunshine cloth). This is what I do sometimes and find it effective without micro-gouging the surface.

katana · 29th May 2006, 08:04 PM

As already pointed out, the blade really does have all the hallmarks of a Katana. Is it possible that it is a re-mounted katana? Shipping routes from Japan to Europe via the Suez Canal (open to shipping in 1869) were, I believe, common. Before the opening of the canal, goods were sometimes transported by being offloaded from ships and carried overland between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. This was often quicker and safer (the cape was often treacherous to sea farers.)
It is not impossible for a Japanese sword or blade to find its way to the middle east.......and then re-mounted.

A very interesting sword........if only your saif could talk.....

Tim Simmons · 29th May 2006, 08:18 PM

If that is so, why do we not see more locally finished Japanese trade blades in the northern hemisphere? It does look like the Japanese cavalry sabre blade used into ww2. I hate to be the one that pours cold water on it but look at the freshness of the blade. lovely scabbard and handle but I have a feeling this is an early 20th century construction.

Tim Simmons · 29th May 2006, 08:38 PM

Japan being Britain's ally in ww1 could have supplied blades to Arabia.

katana · 29th May 2006, 08:52 PM

I was not suggesting the sword is of great age, just offering the possibility that, because trade increased with Japan after the opening of the Suez, that even 120 years ago it could be possible that a Japanese blade could have ended up in the middle east. Not necessarily as a 'trade' blade either, (as Tim pointed out, why are there not more?) Perhaps (as I was thinking) a trophy, gift or personal purchase by a trader/crew member etc later sold on .......who knows...this is after all ...just speculation

Obviously as time progressed through the 20th C the probability (of a Japanese blade in the Middle East) increases dramatically. (the World Wars, commercial airlines etc etc)

M.carter · 29th May 2006, 09:21 PM

Hi All,

The chances of this sword bearing a japanese blade are just like the chances of Saudi Arabia winning the world cup this year

Its almost impossible. These swords were primarily made in the towns of Hai'l and Al-Jouf. As for Hai'l, it was ruled by the Al-Rasheed's whom were allied with the Ottomans. They had no trade whatsoever with the British Empire, nor the British's allies in the region itself, the Al-Sau'd's and the Bani Hashim. Al-Jouf, was a town which was disconnected from the entire region, it was ruled by the Rwala tribe, headed by their sheikh, Nuri Al-Sha'lan, who had a price on his head by the high porte, and was mostly interested in raiding nearby regions than trade. The Ottoman army constantly besieged Al-Jouf, Rafha and Turaif, the strongholds of these northern tribes, which were constantly breaking off, declaring independance from the Empire. Such towns wouldnt appear pleasing to a merchant. Secondly, and most importantly, I wouldnt think that the British empire or its Japanese subjects would bother themselves into supplying blades into another region, accross the entire world. Basically, I see no chance of this blade being Japanese in anyway, except that it bears a very Japanese like blade. As Tim said, why cannot we see Japanese blades in the northern hemisphere of the world, regarding this subject, European blades of the past 200-150 years were by far, better in quality than Japanese made ones, and were highly sought after in the Arabian market, regardless of this demand, they were not that easy to find, throughout my saif hunting career, ive only seen one Nejdi style sword with a European blade, which bore a 1822 LC french blade, which was very nice sword BTW.

As for the age of this sword, I personally wouldnt think that its much older than 150 years, at the most. Its certainly not 20th century, as most 20th century saifs have longer, more curved blades, which are also finer. Of course, most of this is guesstimation, based upon my handling and viewing many arabian swords.

I just finished polishing the scabbard and hilt fittings, looks MUCH better now, after all the rubbing and scrubbing with that rouge. Ill post a pic tommorow.

EDIT: Just noted something, looking down the pommel, which was very damaged, I can see the end of the tang of the blade, and as with ALL arabian swords, the end of the tang is hooked. Now I do not think that the Japanese produced hooked tangs for their shin-gunto's or gendaito's

26th May 2006, 03:34 PM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Very Old Arabian Saif Hello, The newest addition to my collection. I would like any information you guys have about it, approximate age? When I bought it, the pommel was broken off, and it is very damaged, but a quick superglue job fixed it. The blade measures 28 inches, which is quite short for a saif I must say, as most are over 30. The silver is very oxidised too. May I ask, will polishing the silver back to its shine, devalue the piece? I really would like to, but Im afraid it will lose some value. The hilt slabs have hairline cracks in them, and are of bone or ivory (I cant tell). The edge seems to have been sharpened with a file at some point, but its verrry sharp, razor sharp, touching it gave me a nasty cut on my fingers. The blade profile is very katana like, not a wedge as common on these swords. I must say, this is a very hefty blade, the stoutest Ive seen on a saif. This sword is very well balanced and very well made, only not very well cared for, there was some light pitting and rust in the middle of the blade, which I cleaned off easily, and many other lightly pitted spots. The pommel is very damaged. Im very excited with this sword, as its my first antique ever! Hope you guys can help me with my queries. Last edited by M.carter; 26th May 2006 at 04:02 PM.

26th May 2006, 03:41 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	More pics: Last edited by M.carter; 26th May 2006 at 04:00 PM.

26th May 2006, 04:37 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would see no harm in brightening the silver (not polishing, of course, there are silver cleaning liquids in any supermarket). After all, removing the rust from the blade or putting some Leather Therapy on the scabbard are the necessary components of proper care for a sword. do you think it is Syrian or Saudi ( general areas)?

26th May 2006, 05:26 PM	#4
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	That's a very interesting blade geometry, I wonder if the experts could weigh in on whether this is common with saifs? Personally I don't recall seeing one before. Congrats on a very nice piece Mr. Carter, once the antique bug bites it doesn't seem to let go.

27th May 2006, 10:14 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Kai is right. IN addition you can also use a jewelers cloth. The liquid "tarn-x" or stuff like that distroy the finish that is there beneath the tarnish.

28th May 2006, 01:36 AM	#11
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Nice sword and an unusual blade. Shaped a little like a Japanese sword.

28th May 2006, 08:10 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	One other point regarding cleaning the tarnish off the silver. I had forgotton the name of another soft abrasive that I would recommend first: "Never Dull" which can be googled, then afterwards use a jeweler's cloth (also called a "sunshine cloth). This is what I do sometimes and find it effective without micro-gouging the surface.

29th May 2006, 08:04 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	As already pointed out, the blade really does have all the hallmarks of a Katana. Is it possible that it is a re-mounted katana? Shipping routes from Japan to Europe via the Suez Canal (open to shipping in 1869) were, I believe, common. Before the opening of the canal, goods were sometimes transported by being offloaded from ships and carried overland between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. This was often quicker and safer (the cape was often treacherous to sea farers.) It is not impossible for a Japanese sword or blade to find its way to the middle east.......and then re-mounted. A very interesting sword........if only your saif could talk.....

29th May 2006, 08:18 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If that is so, why do we not see more locally finished Japanese trade blades in the northern hemisphere? It does look like the Japanese cavalry sabre blade used into ww2. I hate to be the one that pours cold water on it but look at the freshness of the blade. lovely scabbard and handle but I have a feeling this is an early 20th century construction.

29th May 2006, 08:38 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Japan being Britain's ally in ww1 could have supplied blades to Arabia.

29th May 2006, 08:52 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I was not suggesting the sword is of great age, just offering the possibility that, because trade increased with Japan after the opening of the Suez, that even 120 years ago it could be possible that a Japanese blade could have ended up in the middle east. Not necessarily as a 'trade' blade either, (as Tim pointed out, why are there not more?) Perhaps (as I was thinking) a trophy, gift or personal purchase by a trader/crew member etc later sold on .......who knows...this is after all ...just speculation Obviously as time progressed through the 20th C the probability (of a Japanese blade in the Middle East) increases dramatically. (the World Wars, commercial airlines etc etc)

29th May 2006, 09:21 PM	#17
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hi All, The chances of this sword bearing a japanese blade are just like the chances of Saudi Arabia winning the world cup this year Its almost impossible. These swords were primarily made in the towns of Hai'l and Al-Jouf. As for Hai'l, it was ruled by the Al-Rasheed's whom were allied with the Ottomans. They had no trade whatsoever with the British Empire, nor the British's allies in the region itself, the Al-Sau'd's and the Bani Hashim. Al-Jouf, was a town which was disconnected from the entire region, it was ruled by the Rwala tribe, headed by their sheikh, Nuri Al-Sha'lan, who had a price on his head by the high porte, and was mostly interested in raiding nearby regions than trade. The Ottoman army constantly besieged Al-Jouf, Rafha and Turaif, the strongholds of these northern tribes, which were constantly breaking off, declaring independance from the Empire. Such towns wouldnt appear pleasing to a merchant. Secondly, and most importantly, I wouldnt think that the British empire or its Japanese subjects would bother themselves into supplying blades into another region, accross the entire world. Basically, I see no chance of this blade being Japanese in anyway, except that it bears a very Japanese like blade. As Tim said, why cannot we see Japanese blades in the northern hemisphere of the world, regarding this subject, European blades of the past 200-150 years were by far, better in quality than Japanese made ones, and were highly sought after in the Arabian market, regardless of this demand, they were not that easy to find, throughout my saif hunting career, ive only seen one Nejdi style sword with a European blade, which bore a 1822 LC french blade, which was very nice sword BTW. As for the age of this sword, I personally wouldnt think that its much older than 150 years, at the most. Its certainly not 20th century, as most 20th century saifs have longer, more curved blades, which are also finer. Of course, most of this is guesstimation, based upon my handling and viewing many arabian swords. I just finished polishing the scabbard and hilt fittings, looks MUCH better now, after all the rubbing and scrubbing with that rouge. Ill post a pic tommorow. EDIT: Just noted something, looking down the pommel, which was very damaged, I can see the end of the tang of the blade, and as with ALL arabian swords, the end of the tang is hooked. Now I do not think that the Japanese produced hooked tangs for their shin-gunto's or gendaito's