19th May 2008, 06:11 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
Keris Hilt Material
Hi all,
I would like to know what type of hilt material is this? From the form, where does it originated? Other information is also welcomed. [ link ] Last edited by Alam Shah; 20th May 2008 at 09:48 AM. Reason: add photos |
19th May 2008, 07:11 PM | #2 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Hi Shahrial. Nice hilt. Sure looks like sea ivory to me. Dugong maybe. Is there some reason that you think it is something other than that?
|
19th May 2008, 11:19 PM | #3 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
I've got a number of keris with Bugis style hilts that look like they have the same material as this one. I've always thought it was elephant ivory. I just went and had a look at them under magnification , and there is a distinct grain, and some superficial cracking as we could expect with elephant ivory. I'm not taking a position and saying this definitely is elephant ivory, but it sure looks like it to me, and I have some difficulty in imagining what other source could provide material of sufficient size and shape to allow this style of hilt to be produced.
|
20th May 2008, 12:08 AM | #4 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
Quote:
|
|
20th May 2008, 01:22 AM | #5 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
|
Dear Alam Shah,
it is certainly not elefant ivory. Elefant ivory has very distinct lines that at one point ore another are crossing each other forming little squares. On the back of your hilt there is a dark line/crack with small dark dots along it. I have been told that this line is specific for hippo ivory. I have seen rencongs with hilts showing this line. Best regards, Willem |
20th May 2008, 08:52 AM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
Yes, it is true that elephant ivory will often show a cross-hatch grain, but it cannot be taken for granted that because ivory does not show a cross-hatch, it is not elephant ivory.
I have several hundred pieces of ivory, about 100 or so are ivory keris handles, the rest are netsukes, small ivory figurines, and other little bits and pieces. Some that is definitely elephant ivory does not show a cross-hatch grain. The four bent over handles that I have posted pics of do have a grain, but it is not cross-hatch. I've always thought of these handles as elephant ivory, but I'd be the first to admit they might not be. However, if they are not, what other source, readily available to craftsmen in SE Asia, could provide material of sufficient size to allow handles like this to be produced? Whales teeth wouldn't do it. Walrus? Dugong? Boar? What? These are pretty serious lumps of ivory. The upright handle is definitely elephant ivory, I've put this up for comparison. |
20th May 2008, 09:38 AM | #7 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
Quote:
A beautiful display of ivory hilts. I agree with the upright being elephant ivory. Others are... hmmm... I'm pretty much interested in all 4 bent hilts, including their hilt cups... especially the 2nd piece. But unfortunately, I could only dream of it... and drool. Last edited by Alam Shah; 21st May 2008 at 01:49 AM. |
|
20th May 2008, 10:34 AM | #8 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
|
'Some' info I found on the web.
Some accompanying pictures would be nice / any volunteers Quote:
|
|
20th May 2008, 12:41 PM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 928
|
Also I have an handle made by a strange material
It seems like bone (horn?) but in the middle of the hilt there are strange circles more dark Maybe some collector can help me... Also i think that the hilts showed are Hippo tooth (while the withe one is elephant) |
20th May 2008, 02:11 PM | #10 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Here is an interesting website comparing ivories and how to ID them:
http://www.australiangemmologist.com...areivories.pdf |
20th May 2008, 11:46 PM | #11 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
That's a good article, David.
My big problem with what this material in my hilts could be is their size:- they're big lumps of ivory. Reading all the info, yeah, I agree, it could be hippo ivory, but if that's the case there was a very robust trade between some parts of Africa, and SE Asia, during at least the 19th century. I'll see if can get a pic that will show the grain in these hilts of mine. I know this thread started with question from Shahrial, but his hilt seems to be the same material as the ones I've shown, and I've seen a lot of this type of hilt from the same material. Thanks for your comments Shahrial. Yeah, its a bit hard to find this sort of thing these days. The ones I've shown, plus a few I have not shown, all came from a dealer in Jogja about 35 years ago---you just don't see this sort of thing now. |
21st May 2008, 01:47 AM | #12 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
Quote:
David, your link is a good resource too. I think we may find this helpful, as well. [ link ] |
|
21st May 2008, 06:49 AM | #13 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
Here are some close-ups of the hilts posted above.
I think you should be able to see the grain. |
21st May 2008, 06:51 AM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
This is walrus ivory.
|
21st May 2008, 06:53 AM | #15 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
This is whales tooth.
|
3rd June 2008, 04:02 PM | #16 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 32
|
Hilt material
In mine opinion this is Hippopotamus Ivory recognizeble on the long nerve lines.
G.J. |
3rd June 2008, 06:16 PM | #17 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
|
I vote hippo tusk ivory. I have a badek at home with the same material will see if I can take a good pic of it later this week. Look at the top left hand side the dagger I spoke of is there and you can make out the tell tale line in the hilt.
Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 3rd June 2008 at 06:35 PM. |
4th June 2008, 01:23 AM | #18 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 132
|
Alam Shah, your hilt is buffed mirror shine and looks almost like a glass
I think it is hippo tusk too. |
4th June 2008, 03:36 PM | #19 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
|
I've also been told to differentiate hippo ivory from elephant ivory by their heavier weight, non-criss crossed grains and the 'stitch-line' down the length of the ivory. However, I've not come across pictures from reputable books which show those exactly. I guess maybe I haven't looked hard enough. But my question is - is the "stitch-line" unique to hippo ivory? I've seen quite a number of gigantic sized pekaka hilts (the jawa demam form from N. Malaysia; not the tajong, which shd NOT be called a pekaka at all.) and wondered if the hippo tusk could grow to such epic proportions (the length can be wider than my palm). Considering the wastage and the distance between the tanjak (the sharp 'nose'), the garuda mungkur (the spike rising from the back) and the buah pinang (the base of the hilt), it must have been a HUGE tusk to begin with. It has never ceased to amaze me...
On a side-topic, Lew's picture showing the various daggers has convinced me permanently that despite not specializing in collecting in any specific dagger types, he has impeccable tastes and eagle eyes to pick out the really good specimens... Congratulations. |
5th June 2008, 02:01 PM | #20 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
I have seen hippo tusks for sale on the internet that are 17 inches long.
|
|
|