Prehistoric stone battle axe

colin henshaw · 18th October 2011, 03:35 PM

Hi

I wonder if there are any forumites who have an interest in prehistoric weapons, and a specialist knowledge of these ?

Here is a stone battle axe head that I acquired recently, along with some stone tools. Its a large, heavy piece, length about 28cm. I'm thinking maybe of Danish origin. Can anyone tell me more about it etc ?

Regards.

mrwizard · 18th October 2011, 05:06 PM

Very well made piece.
My uneducated guess is that it could be a jutland stone axe:
http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de...htm#Tafel%2013

Best Regards,
Thilo

fernando · 18th October 2011, 06:05 PM

Very nice looking piece, Colin.
I (as certainly a lot more people out there) think that, the reason you don't find a lot more enthusiasts gathering and collecting this kind of prehistoric stuff is that, unless their provenance is "bullet-proof", you take a 99,5 % risk of acquiring fakes.
It is good that Thilo posted a link to track its ID.

kai · 19th October 2011, 10:17 AM

Hello Fernando,

Quote:

the reason you don't find a lot more enthusiasts gathering and collecting this kind of prehistoric stuff is that, unless their provenance is "bullet-proof", you take a 99,5 % risk of acquiring fakes.

Is it that bad, currently? I remember the times when many farmers had collections of pieces gathered from their own fields...

A good magnifying glass comes in handy for sure: scratches as well as patina from genuine use are tough to fake. Patina from being buried in the soil does help, too. Status pieces which may not have seen much use (if any) and made from certain stones may be more difficult to evaluate though.

BTW, while this axe is European, I reckon this thread may be better suited for the main forum, isn't it? The time frame is quite distinct from what is discussed here in the armoury and I see no point in discussing neolithic pieces in different fora depending on wether they originate from Europe vs., say, America or the near East.

Regards,
Kai

colin henshaw · 21st October 2011, 10:30 AM

Thanks to those who responded on this item, especially to mrwizard for the interesting link.

Fernando, how do you arrive at the 99.5% figure ??

Regards.

fernando · 21st October 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

... Fernando, how do you arrive at the 99.5% figure ?? ...

First of all Colin, i was referring to your "wandering if there are any forumites who have an interest in prehistoric weapons" and not at all to the provenance of your axe.
Secondly and naturaly my 99,5% quote doesn't arrive from any statistics calculation, being no more than a graphic expression meaning that, after what i have learnt, the chances to spot a fake pre-historic artifact in the general markets out there, are significantly higher than those of dealing with the authentic stuff.
I happen to be a fan of antiquity, but after i went through my first (and only) experience with a couple bronze axes that ended up being "authentic" knockoffs, i decided to re-date the starting of this theme to a "sine die" status.
If you have the time to go HERE you will read some interesting posts from members weaving considerations on such issue.
By the way, after some time i incidently ended up finding out the origin of my axes ... replicas cast with moulds made out of genuine specimens ... belonging to a self assumed owner.

Tim Simmons · 21st October 2011, 08:29 PM

Stone looks far too soft, chips are new.. Looks like a bronze axe shape.

Matchlock · 21st October 2011, 08:32 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Though this is not my field of expertise, from all I have heard from the international market, I cannot but comply with your experience!

German auction houses have tended for years not to accept 'prehistoric' items unless they have a documented provenance of at least before 1960. As far as I have heard both Stone and Bronze Age artifacts are being faked at large, mainly in Eastern European countries. Those guys even use fragments of historic bronzes to cast desired items - they are said to not even be told apart even by by refined scientific methods (apart from the fact that such an investigation would be costly far beyond the item's actual value) ...

Neolithic stone axe blades like yours without safe provenance would currently start at an estimate of ca. 20 to 30 euro (15 to 33 USD). Most of them remain unsold ...

Best,
Michl

VANDOO · 21st October 2011, 08:58 PM

THE DAINISH STONE WORK IS SOME OF THE BEST IN EUROPE SO HAS BEEN IN DEMAND FOR A LONG TIME SO THE PRICES HAVE BEEN HIGHER THAN FOR LOTS OF OTHER STONE ARTEFACTS. THE MORE RARE AND HIGHER PRICED PIECES ARE ALWAYS THE ONES A MAKER OF FAKES WANTS TO MAKE (DANISH STONE DAGGERS FOR EXAMPLE).
THAT BEING SAID THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE AUTHENTIC STONE IMPLEMENTS OUT THERE THAN FAKES ESPECIALLY IN THE MORE SIMPLE INEXPENSIVE FORMS. THE WORKMANSHIP ON YOUR AX LOOKS GOOD AS FAR AS I CAN TELL FROM PICTURES , YOUR EXAMPLE USING THE GRINDING AND PECKING METHODS FOR SHAPEING AND THEN SMOOTHING FOR A FINISH SHOULD BE EASY FOR AN EXPERT TO AUTHENTICATE (OR NOT

)
THE ITEM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE VALUABLE SO IS PROBABLY WORTH GETTING SOMEONE TO DO A PAPER OF AUTHENTICATION ON IT. THE FELLOWS WHO DO THAT OVER HERE USUALLY CHARGE $25.00 IF THEY DO THE PAPER AND IF THEY DETERMINE ITS NOT OLD WHICH USUALLY TAKES A VERY FEW MOMENTS THEY DON'T DO THE PAPER AND IN MY CASE DO NOT CHARGE.
IN THE USA THERE ARE MORE AUTHENTIC POINTS AROUND AND IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK NOT TOO DIFFICULT TO FIND BUT COMPETICIAN IS FIERCE AS THERE ARE MANY WHO HUNT THEM. MOST FLINT KNAPPERS SELL THEIR POINTS AS REPLICAS BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO WILL BUY TO RESELL AS AUTHENTIC SO CARE MUST BE TAKEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW A DEALER.
A NICE LOOKING AX I HOPE YOU FIND IT TO BE THE REAL DEAL, GOOD LUCK

PICTURES OF 3 DANISH KNAPPED FLINT DAGGERS SUPPOSIDLY REAL

BUT NICE FORMS
REPLICA DANISH DAGGER ON YELLOW BACKGROUND MADE OF MOOKITE
REPLICA DANISH DAGGER MADE OF GLASS, MINE

I REFER TO IT AS THE CATHEDERAL POINT AS IT REMINDS ME OF A STAINED GLASS WINDOW.

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2011, 11:12 AM

According to "Stone Axe Studies 111, Vin Davis, Mark Edmonds" This axe is modelled on Grave goods axes from Bohemia. Finds of these date from the "eneolithic period" in other words the early bronze age. The fact that most are found intact and the halting holes are small they would not fun ction as war axes. Along with grave goods they may have been worn suspended. Currently there are 18 known burial sites contianing these axes. There are miniture version, clay and antler models. The stone axes are limestone. Limestone is soft but properly halft more than hard enough to stove a human head in.

The big question is yours genuine? For a soft stone there is a remarkable lack of natural soil acid attack on the polished stone surface.

18th October 2011, 03:35 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Prehistoric stone battle axe Hi I wonder if there are any forumites who have an interest in prehistoric weapons, and a specialist knowledge of these ? Here is a stone battle axe head that I acquired recently, along with some stone tools. Its a large, heavy piece, length about 28cm. I'm thinking maybe of Danish origin. Can anyone tell me more about it etc ? Regards. Attached Images

21st October 2011, 08:32 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Though this is not my field of expertise, from all I have heard from the international market, I cannot but comply with your experience! German auction houses have tended for years not to accept 'prehistoric' items unless they have a documented provenance of at least before 1960. As far as I have heard both Stone and Bronze Age artifacts are being faked at large, mainly in Eastern European countries. Those guys even use fragments of historic bronzes to cast desired items - they are said to not even be told apart even by by refined scientific methods (apart from the fact that such an investigation would be costly far beyond the item's actual value) ... Neolithic stone axe blades like yours without safe provenance would currently start at an estimate of ca. 20 to 30 euro (15 to 33 USD). Most of them remain unsold ... Best, Michl Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd October 2011 at 04:05 AM.

21st October 2011, 08:58 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE DAINISH STONE WORK IS SOME OF THE BEST IN EUROPE SO HAS BEEN IN DEMAND FOR A LONG TIME SO THE PRICES HAVE BEEN HIGHER THAN FOR LOTS OF OTHER STONE ARTEFACTS. THE MORE RARE AND HIGHER PRICED PIECES ARE ALWAYS THE ONES A MAKER OF FAKES WANTS TO MAKE (DANISH STONE DAGGERS FOR EXAMPLE). THAT BEING SAID THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE AUTHENTIC STONE IMPLEMENTS OUT THERE THAN FAKES ESPECIALLY IN THE MORE SIMPLE INEXPENSIVE FORMS. THE WORKMANSHIP ON YOUR AX LOOKS GOOD AS FAR AS I CAN TELL FROM PICTURES , YOUR EXAMPLE USING THE GRINDING AND PECKING METHODS FOR SHAPEING AND THEN SMOOTHING FOR A FINISH SHOULD BE EASY FOR AN EXPERT TO AUTHENTICATE (OR NOT ) THE ITEM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE VALUABLE SO IS PROBABLY WORTH GETTING SOMEONE TO DO A PAPER OF AUTHENTICATION ON IT. THE FELLOWS WHO DO THAT OVER HERE USUALLY CHARGE $25.00 IF THEY DO THE PAPER AND IF THEY DETERMINE ITS NOT OLD WHICH USUALLY TAKES A VERY FEW MOMENTS THEY DON'T DO THE PAPER AND IN MY CASE DO NOT CHARGE. IN THE USA THERE ARE MORE AUTHENTIC POINTS AROUND AND IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK NOT TOO DIFFICULT TO FIND BUT COMPETICIAN IS FIERCE AS THERE ARE MANY WHO HUNT THEM. MOST FLINT KNAPPERS SELL THEIR POINTS AS REPLICAS BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO WILL BUY TO RESELL AS AUTHENTIC SO CARE MUST BE TAKEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW A DEALER. A NICE LOOKING AX I HOPE YOU FIND IT TO BE THE REAL DEAL, GOOD LUCK PICTURES OF 3 DANISH KNAPPED FLINT DAGGERS SUPPOSIDLY REAL BUT NICE FORMS REPLICA DANISH DAGGER ON YELLOW BACKGROUND MADE OF MOOKITE REPLICA DANISH DAGGER MADE OF GLASS, MINE I REFER TO IT AS THE CATHEDERAL POINT AS IT REMINDS ME OF A STAINED GLASS WINDOW. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 21st October 2011 at 09:11 PM.

22nd October 2011, 11:12 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	According to "Stone Axe Studies 111, Vin Davis, Mark Edmonds" This axe is modelled on Grave goods axes from Bohemia. Finds of these date from the "eneolithic period" in other words the early bronze age. The fact that most are found intact and the halting holes are small they would not fun ction as war axes. Along with grave goods they may have been worn suspended. Currently there are 18 known burial sites contianing these axes. There are miniture version, clay and antler models. The stone axes are limestone. Limestone is soft but properly halft more than hard enough to stove a human head in. The big question is yours genuine? For a soft stone there is a remarkable lack of natural soil acid attack on the polished stone surface. Attached Images

18th October 2011, 05:06 PM	#2
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Very well made piece. My uneducated guess is that it could be a jutland stone axe: http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de...htm#Tafel%2013 Best Regards, Thilo

18th October 2011, 06:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very nice looking piece, Colin. I (as certainly a lot more people out there) think that, the reason you don't find a lot more enthusiasts gathering and collecting this kind of prehistoric stuff is that, unless their provenance is "bullet-proof", you take a 99,5 % risk of acquiring fakes. It is good that Thilo posted a link to track its ID.

21st October 2011, 10:30 AM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Thanks to those who responded on this item, especially to mrwizard for the interesting link. Fernando, how do you arrive at the 99.5% figure ?? Regards.

21st October 2011, 08:29 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Stone looks far too soft, chips are new.. Looks like a bronze axe shape.