Mendak

danny1976 · 22nd September 2011, 03:30 PM

G, Day .

This week I bought some keris from a local auction site , the most is rubbish but there was one East Javanese keris with this mendak .
The keris is relative simple but imo old and ''original'' (so far this can be )

I want know now if this type of mendak is a older type and from East Java ?

Greetings,

Danny

danny1976 · 23rd September 2011, 01:45 PM

No one a idea

I did make a new photo , not so in close up.
Just want to know if this mendak style is ok for a east java keris.

Sajen · 23rd September 2011, 11:03 PM

Hi Danny,

I don't know if this mendak is from East Java but it is a very nice one, I think that I never have seen a similar one. The material look like gold, do you have tested it?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 24th September 2011, 03:17 AM

Danny, when we move away from the mainstream, particularly with keris that have a bit of age, it is not at all unusual to find mendak that don't fit the usual patterns. This one looks as if it has been done by a village jeweler somewhere. However, you don't show the entire keris, I don't know if I'm looking at Bali, Madura or East Jawa. Would a full length photo in and out of scabbard be possible?

danny1976 · 24th September 2011, 12:00 PM

@ Detlef,

Yes i think also it's gold , i did not test it because i have the keris just a couple of day's but I'm 90 % sure it will be gold.

@ Mr Maisey.

Yes it's ok for me to show this keris , here some photo's maybe that will give the answer where this keris is from? To me it looks really big for a keris from East Java especially the hilt( . But the blade is Javanese to me , It's not cleaned yet so I hope it's ''clean'' enough to determinate .

PenangsangII · 24th September 2011, 12:51 PM

imho, your keris originated in Tuban (east Jawa)

danny1976 · 25th September 2011, 07:41 PM

@ PenangsangII

Thank's for your opinion , but what do you think of the mendak is it the good style for the keris ? That,s why i started this thread

David · 26th September 2011, 04:57 AM

Frankly Danny i am not sure that thus style of mendak looks correct with this hilt form.

GIO · 26th September 2011, 12:49 PM

The mendak seems suitable for the blade, but not for the hilt, which is balinese type.

Gustav · 26th September 2011, 01:42 PM

As I understand, there is lack of any serious documentation about East-Javanese keris. Despite this, it seems to me the whole ensemble could be original. Old keris is mostly nothing for purists. Regarding this hilt form, I am almost absolutely sure it can be found on East Java.

David · 26th September 2011, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

The mendak seems suitable for the blade, but not for the hilt, which is balinese type.

I agree with Gustav that a variation on the Balinese bondolan hilt is known in East Java. If i am not mistaken it is generally a bit shorter and squatter than it's Balinese cousin as this one seems to appear.
I would still say that this mendak doesn't look quite right with it though...

DAHenkel · 26th September 2011, 03:21 PM

Wasn't there a thread some time not so far back about these pieces? I think s/o in the know said they were from Madura...made by Balinese migrants in a sort of hybrid style. There was one very nice one some years ago from a Polish museum which caused quite a stir and there is another very nice one in the Museum Nasional's collection in Jakarta that is pictured in Hamzuri.

danny1976 · 26th September 2011, 07:51 PM

Everybody thanks for joining the discussion !

Yes it is realy hard to find some good info on keris from East Jawa , I did some reading in some books that i have but in no book that i have there is a clear description of keris like this . Personal I like keris like this the are ''big '' and have a rough appearance .

Then is there the question about the mendhak , the only that I could find was on the disk of Jensen in the chapter of East jawa . I'm copying a piece of it here
#############keris disc Jensen ################
The Mendaks are of the same types as those found in Central Java. The blades are
difficult to define. The Balinese/Western Javanese character may appear by the fact that
their blades are heavier and broader than the Central Javanese. Even if they are having
the same decorations as the Central Javanese ones they are more coarsely executed than
both the central Javanese and Balinese ones.

############################################

Or maybe the keris is from the time that the Balinese tried to invade in
Madura , like DA Henkel mentioned , Jensen is also writing a piece about that in the Madura Chapter.

Why is it that there is almost no history know of keris like this

Danny

VVV · 26th September 2011, 09:46 PM

Danny,

I have one of its cousins with a resembling mendak that just slightly covers more of the hilt.

Michael

David · 26th September 2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Danny,

I have one of its cousins with a resembling mendak that just slightly covers more of the hilt.

Michael

I would say that unlike Danny's mendak, which looks to have been made to fit the flat bottom surface of a typical planar style Javanese hilt, your mendak seems to have been made to fit the curved contour of this bondalan form.

Gustav · 26th September 2011, 11:11 PM

Danny, what is the diameter of this mendak?

A. G. Maisey · 27th September 2011, 06:17 AM

Danny, I know this style of mendak, and class of workmanship, as Madura, village work.

The dress I think I would probably give as Sumenep, Bali --- good story goes with this, but I'm pressed for time, and I think I might have already told the yarn anyway.

The distinction between Sumenep - Bali and Bali - Bali is very fine as it is a matter of proportion, I cannot rely on photos to tell me accurately what the proportions are of this dress.

From what I can see of the blade, it does have some Tuban characteristics, but from the pics the material does not look like Tuban, again anybody with any knowledge would really have to handle it before giving a definite opinion. I cannot give one based on photos.

Re "East Jawa". Madura is in East Jawa. It is a part of East Jawa. Used to be a ferry ride to get there, these days you drive over a bridge.

There is definite Bali influence in the dress of keris from Blambangan, but I do not know this particular dress of yours as Blambangan.

Based upon what I have been told by people living in Sumenep, and what I can see in these photos, on balance I would opt for Sumenep - Bali.

The mendak might be gold --- anything is possible --- but in all honesty the quality of workmanship simply does not sit well with even a village gold smith, it looks like a village jeweller's work, and I feel that I would be more inclined to guess at an alloy something like pinchbeck. If it is in fact Sumenep - Bali, I'd be inclined to leave it exactly as is.

Jean · 27th September 2011, 10:01 AM

Danny, this is a nice and rare style of mendak anyway.
Alan, please repeat the Sumenep - Bali story when you have time as I don't remember to have read it (unless somebody can refer to the thread in question), is it linked to the event when the Madurese enrolled Balinese soldiers for fighting against the Mataram kingdom?
Regards

Gustav · 27th September 2011, 11:03 AM

Here, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...madura+wrongko, are some more questions and answers to be find.

danny1976 · 27th September 2011, 01:14 PM

@ Michael,

Thanks for showing , your's is a beauty . It is from the Tammen's keris isn't it?

@ Alan,

Thanks for the explanation , the story you're referring to is what I meant that we also can find on the keris disc from Jensen.

But I always thought if the keris has belonged to a Balinese living in Madura the waranka would have the ''eyebrow'' cut into the waranka ?
See the 2 photo,s a attached from the bigger brother I found together with 'my' keris we are discussing above. Or do I make a mistake and is the "eyebrow" not a typical Balinese feature ?

@ Gustav,

I will measure the mendhak later for you , thanks for bringing the link up.

Jean · 28th September 2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Here, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...madura+wrongko, are some more questions and answers to be find.

Thank you Gustav (and Alan), interesting subject!

kai · 30th September 2011, 10:15 AM

Hello Danny,

Please post more pics of the 2nd keris!

I feel that it rather strengthens the POV that this pair did came from Madura (with obviously heavy cultural influence from Bali). I'd keep both as found - IMVHO it would be a shame to alter a genuine combo as both appear to be. I'd only consider to patch the drilled holes with wax (or a traditional woodfiller if you're sure to achieve the same color).

I'd love to hear Alan's opinion wether such a selut as seen with the 2nd keris is also not unusual for the Madura-Bali setting!

Regards,
Kai

David · 30th September 2011, 06:25 PM

I agree. From what i can see of this second keris i thing it may well not be a Bali keris either. The shape of the sheath seems off and the mendak here certainly doesn't look Balinese. Please show us the whole thing...

danny1976 · 30th September 2011, 08:44 PM

Hi David and Kai.

Oke here the photo,s of the second keris . It was not my intention to show this one because I was thinking to sale this keris and not keeping it for my collection but for learning and discussing it is of course useful to put the photo's here .

The Patin on the Waranka and hilt of this one is great , the ''mendak'' i have seen this style before on a Madura keris .
The Blade is nice and I already did some cleaning on this one .

So special for you two guy's

asomotif · 1st October 2011, 09:28 AM

VERY NICE JOB ON THE BLADE !

Sajen · 1st October 2011, 04:38 PM

Hi Danny,

agree with Willem, very good etching job and nice blade which look like a East Java or Madura blade to my eyes. Sheath and handle look balinese. But agree with Kai and David, keep it like found. How is the fit from the blade inside the sheath?

Regards,

Detlef

danny1976 · 2nd October 2011, 08:15 PM

Hi Detlef,

The fit of the blade in the sheath is not ''original'' the sheath is to wide for the blade , but I think it's already a long time like this .

I'm still not sure it's Balinese , it could be but the sheath is a little more ''fat'' then what you see common for a Balinese Waranka .

David · 3rd October 2011, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

Hi Detlef,

The fit of the blade in the sheath is not ''original'' the sheath is to wide for the blade , but I think it's already a long time like this .

I'm still not sure it's Balinese , it could be but the sheath is a little more ''fat'' then what you see common for a Balinese Waranka .

Sorry Danny, i hit "edit" instead of "quote" in error the first time.

I think this one might be all Madura from the looks of it...

A. G. Maisey · 4th October 2011, 01:27 AM

I have no hesitation in providing my opinion that this second keris is 100% Bali-Madura.

22nd September 2011, 03:30 PM	#1
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Mendak G, Day . This week I bought some keris from a local auction site , the most is rubbish but there was one East Javanese keris with this mendak . The keris is relative simple but imo old and ''original'' (so far this can be ) I want know now if this type of mendak is a older type and from East Java ? Greetings, Danny Attached Images

23rd September 2011, 01:45 PM	#2
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	No one a idea I did make a new photo , not so in close up. Just want to know if this mendak style is ok for a east java keris. Attached Images

24th September 2011, 12:00 PM	#5
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	@ Detlef, Yes i think also it's gold , i did not test it because i have the keris just a couple of day's but I'm 90 % sure it will be gold. @ Mr Maisey. Yes it's ok for me to show this keris , here some photo's maybe that will give the answer where this keris is from? To me it looks really big for a keris from East Java especially the hilt( . But the blade is Javanese to me , It's not cleaned yet so I hope it's ''clean'' enough to determinate . Attached Images

26th September 2011, 09:46 PM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Danny, I have one of its cousins with a resembling mendak that just slightly covers more of the hilt. Michael Attached Images

27th September 2011, 01:14 PM	#20
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	@ Michael, Thanks for showing , your's is a beauty . It is from the Tammen's keris isn't it? @ Alan, Thanks for the explanation , the story you're referring to is what I meant that we also can find on the keris disc from Jensen. But I always thought if the keris has belonged to a Balinese living in Madura the waranka would have the ''eyebrow'' cut into the waranka ? See the 2 photo,s a attached from the bigger brother I found together with 'my' keris we are discussing above. Or do I make a mistake and is the "eyebrow" not a typical Balinese feature ? @ Gustav, I will measure the mendhak later for you , thanks for bringing the link up. Attached Images

23rd September 2011, 11:03 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,775	Hi Danny, I don't know if this mendak is from East Java but it is a very nice one, I think that I never have seen a similar one. The material look like gold, do you have tested it? Regards, Detlef

24th September 2011, 03:17 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Danny, when we move away from the mainstream, particularly with keris that have a bit of age, it is not at all unusual to find mendak that don't fit the usual patterns. This one looks as if it has been done by a village jeweler somewhere. However, you don't show the entire keris, I don't know if I'm looking at Bali, Madura or East Jawa. Would a full length photo in and out of scabbard be possible?

24th September 2011, 12:51 PM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	imho, your keris originated in Tuban (east Jawa)

25th September 2011, 07:41 PM	#7
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	@ PenangsangII Thank's for your opinion , but what do you think of the mendak is it the good style for the keris ? That,s why i started this thread

26th September 2011, 04:57 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Frankly Danny i am not sure that thus style of mendak looks correct with this hilt form.

26th September 2011, 12:49 PM	#9
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	The mendak seems suitable for the blade, but not for the hilt, which is balinese type.

26th September 2011, 01:42 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	As I understand, there is lack of any serious documentation about East-Javanese keris. Despite this, it seems to me the whole ensemble could be original. Old keris is mostly nothing for purists. Regarding this hilt form, I am almost absolutely sure it can be found on East Java.

26th September 2011, 03:21 PM	#12
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Wasn't there a thread some time not so far back about these pieces? I think s/o in the know said they were from Madura...made by Balinese migrants in a sort of hybrid style. There was one very nice one some years ago from a Polish museum which caused quite a stir and there is another very nice one in the Museum Nasional's collection in Jakarta that is pictured in Hamzuri.

26th September 2011, 07:51 PM	#13
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Everybody thanks for joining the discussion ! Yes it is realy hard to find some good info on keris from East Jawa , I did some reading in some books that i have but in no book that i have there is a clear description of keris like this . Personal I like keris like this the are ''big '' and have a rough appearance . Then is there the question about the mendhak , the only that I could find was on the disk of Jensen in the chapter of East jawa . I'm copying a piece of it here #############keris disc Jensen ################ The Mendaks are of the same types as those found in Central Java. The blades are difficult to define. The Balinese/Western Javanese character may appear by the fact that their blades are heavier and broader than the Central Javanese. Even if they are having the same decorations as the Central Javanese ones they are more coarsely executed than both the central Javanese and Balinese ones. ############################################ Or maybe the keris is from the time that the Balinese tried to invade in Madura , like DA Henkel mentioned , Jensen is also writing a piece about that in the Madura Chapter. Why is it that there is almost no history know of keris like this Danny

26th September 2011, 11:11 PM	#16
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Danny, what is the diameter of this mendak?

27th September 2011, 06:17 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Danny, I know this style of mendak, and class of workmanship, as Madura, village work. The dress I think I would probably give as Sumenep, Bali --- good story goes with this, but I'm pressed for time, and I think I might have already told the yarn anyway. The distinction between Sumenep - Bali and Bali - Bali is very fine as it is a matter of proportion, I cannot rely on photos to tell me accurately what the proportions are of this dress. From what I can see of the blade, it does have some Tuban characteristics, but from the pics the material does not look like Tuban, again anybody with any knowledge would really have to handle it before giving a definite opinion. I cannot give one based on photos. Re "East Jawa". Madura is in East Jawa. It is a part of East Jawa. Used to be a ferry ride to get there, these days you drive over a bridge. There is definite Bali influence in the dress of keris from Blambangan, but I do not know this particular dress of yours as Blambangan. Based upon what I have been told by people living in Sumenep, and what I can see in these photos, on balance I would opt for Sumenep - Bali. The mendak might be gold --- anything is possible --- but in all honesty the quality of workmanship simply does not sit well with even a village gold smith, it looks like a village jeweller's work, and I feel that I would be more inclined to guess at an alloy something like pinchbeck. If it is in fact Sumenep - Bali, I'd be inclined to leave it exactly as is.

27th September 2011, 10:01 AM	#18
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Danny, this is a nice and rare style of mendak anyway. Alan, please repeat the Sumenep - Bali story when you have time as I don't remember to have read it (unless somebody can refer to the thread in question), is it linked to the event when the Madurese enrolled Balinese soldiers for fighting against the Mataram kingdom? Regards

27th September 2011, 11:03 AM	#19
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Here, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...madura+wrongko, are some more questions and answers to be find.

30th September 2011, 10:15 AM	#22
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Danny, Please post more pics of the 2nd keris! I feel that it rather strengthens the POV that this pair did came from Madura (with obviously heavy cultural influence from Bali). I'd keep both as found - IMVHO it would be a shame to alter a genuine combo as both appear to be. I'd only consider to patch the drilled holes with wax (or a traditional woodfiller if you're sure to achieve the same color). I'd love to hear Alan's opinion wether such a selut as seen with the 2nd keris is also not unusual for the Madura-Bali setting! Regards, Kai

30th September 2011, 06:25 PM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	I agree. From what i can see of this second keris i thing it may well not be a Bali keris either. The shape of the sheath seems off and the mendak here certainly doesn't look Balinese. Please show us the whole thing...

30th September 2011, 08:44 PM	#24
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi David and Kai. Oke here the photo,s of the second keris . It was not my intention to show this one because I was thinking to sale this keris and not keeping it for my collection but for learning and discussing it is of course useful to put the photo's here . The Patin on the Waranka and hilt of this one is great , the ''mendak'' i have seen this style before on a Madura keris . The Blade is nice and I already did some cleaning on this one . So special for you two guy's Attached Images

1st October 2011, 09:28 AM	#25
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	VERY NICE JOB ON THE BLADE !

1st October 2011, 04:38 PM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,775	Hi Danny, agree with Willem, very good etching job and nice blade which look like a East Java or Madura blade to my eyes. Sheath and handle look balinese. But agree with Kai and David, keep it like found. How is the fit from the blade inside the sheath? Regards, Detlef

2nd October 2011, 08:15 PM	#27
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Detlef, The fit of the blade in the sheath is not ''original'' the sheath is to wide for the blade , but I think it's already a long time like this . I'm still not sure it's Balinese , it could be but the sheath is a little more ''fat'' then what you see common for a Balinese Waranka . Last edited by David; 3rd October 2011 at 01:26 AM.

4th October 2011, 01:27 AM	#29
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I have no hesitation in providing my opinion that this second keris is 100% Bali-Madura.