Nothing at all to do with keris.

A. G. Maisey · 20th March 2010, 02:44 AM

This post either has absolutely nothing to do with keris, or it has absolutely everything to do with keris.

How you percieve its relevance to the keris is dependent upon how your mind works.

At the heart of keris understanding for the modern collector, both within keris bearing cultures, and outside keris bearing cultures, is the question of origin in both geographic terms and in terms of age of the relevant keris.

The way in which we address this question of origin can very often be quite humorous if we care to take two long steps back from the matter and address it in a purely objective and logical way.

Without becoming too involved in discussion of the source of humour, it may be sufficient to observe that as a group, and individually, we tend to either take shelter in vagueness, or regard vagueness as certainty. We swim in a sea of vagueness.

Recently I was lent a really wonderful book. Possibly the best bit of reading I've had in front of me in a long time:-

Not Exactly: In praise of vagueness --- Kees van Deemter (Oxford University Press)

As I have been reading it, I have constantly been amused by the matters treated in this book, and the attitudes and conventions of those of us who have an interest in the keris.

If your mind functions in a way that relates ideas, characteristics, information , that is relevant to one sphere to similar ideas etc that are relevant in other spheres, and thus provide better understanding of the functionality of concepts within disparate spheres, you will enjoy this book:-

http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~kvdeemte/NotExactly-book

Here is a sample:-

http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~kvdeemte/...eemter-c01.pdf

However, if you seek clear-cut answers that progress in a straight line, you will very probably not enjoy it at all.

If you do bring yourself to read it, you may better understand what we are dealing with when we set out to categorise keris.

David · 20th March 2010, 03:13 AM

hmmm...i vote "absolutely everything to do with keris"...

ThePepperSkull · 20th March 2010, 03:41 AM

Very interesting.

As someone who is just learning about all things keris, my mind is set on "Categorize" in order for me to remember terms and absorb knowledge more easily.

It seems to me that the more experienced of veteran collectors and connoiseurs, such as Mr Maisey, are less inclined to categorize or critique and more inclined to appreciate the work that may go into a keris. Perhaps because of his more in-depth knowledge, perhaps because of his experiences with the keris, or maybe even because of some sort of cultural difference between he and others like myself on this message board.

I am reminded from personal experience of Philippine edged weaponry, where (on this forum as well), we tend to try to set apart what a Sanduko is from a Tenegre or a Talibon from a Garab. In the Philippines, however, they are just known collectively and simply as "Bolo" or "Itak".

BluErf · 21st March 2010, 04:11 AM

My 2 bits - Vagueness - one of the ways people use to deal with questions they cannot precisely answer, to make sense of the world which they cannot fully perceive or think about. A way to generate working patterns that can be used. The by-product of not being able to articulate what our brain has seen and known. What many people do to keep themselves from going insane.

Alam Shah · 21st March 2010, 05:04 AM

My 1 bit.. what is clear is, no one knows everything for sure.. the more we know, the more we'll discover things that we do not.. the more we're sure, we'll discover information that will challenge our perceptions and theories..

Kai Wee, I like your 2 bits..

Categorize.. to a certain extend imho, is necessary.. In the keris world, to streamline certain forms, features and other such parameters, helps to form an opinion.. however, there will be exceptions.. for example, in the case of the Bugis keris blades, it covers a large geographical area, how can we tell them apart?

Names, Nomenclatures.. to a certain extent helps to express/define what one is talking about.. but over time, I found that the variations are 'endless' from region to region.. to an extreme extent, from state to state.. (as mentioned by Alan before)..

ganjawulung · 21st March 2010, 05:54 AM

Interesting topic on interesting book,

May i quote this interesting statement of Mr van Deemter on vagueness, as Alan posted in this thread:

...In the course of this book, it will become clear that vagueness is
everywhere: if you believe a concept to be completely crisp, then examine
it more closely and it will often prove to be vague. Size-denoting terms
such as ‘small’ and ‘large’ are obviously vague, for example, but so are
colour terms, at least in ordinary language, where sharp boundaries are
not artificially imposed on them...

and also,

...The aim of this book is to explore how vagueness works, and why it
pervades communication. It is part and parcel of this enterprise to ask
why vagueness is not always a bad thing: we shall see that sometimes
vagueness is simply unavoidable, while on other occasions vagueness is
actually preferable to precision. We shall also devote considerable space
to discussing the implications of our findings for the construction of
Artificially Intelligent systems, which are slowly but surely starting to be
endowed with a human-like capacity to produce and understand ordinary
language....

We deal with vagueness, everyday, in our Warung kopi here. Are we all crisp? As Waroeng itself, in the daily meaning in Jawa is also a place of "vagueness" in the sense of people in Jawanese waroeng, sometimes will talk about serious things -- whether it is political matter, or criminal matter, even moral matter -- in a vague way....

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2010, 10:30 AM

Think about tangguh --- or any other classificatory system for that matter --- in terms of the sorites paradox.

Consider the reversal of poles in linguistics.

Consider the point at which the vague becomes crisp, the threshold of relative certainty, and then consider this relationship to Eubulides.

When used in a matrixical form with the elements of supposed "keris knowledge" the concepts addressed in this book cannot fail to amuse.

Laowang · 24th March 2010, 05:29 AM

Jorge Luis Borges, in his essay "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins", mentions an apocryphal Chinese encyclopedia in which:

animals are divided into (a) those that belong to the Emperor, (b) embalmed ones, (c) those that are trained, (d) suckling pigs, (e) mermaids, (f) fabulous ones, (g) stray dogs, (h) those that are included in this classification, (i) those that tremble as if they were mad, (j) innumerable ones, (k) those drawn with a very fine camel's hair brush, (l) others, (m) those that have just broken a flower vase, (n) those that resemble flies from a distance.

He concludes:

It is clear that there is no classification of the Universe that is not arbitrary and full of conjectures. The reason for this is very simple: we do not know what kind of thing the universe is.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

A. G. Maisey · 31st March 2010, 06:15 AM

I was caught in a line of traffic this morning.

In front of me was great big aggressive looking SUV , that was being driven by a very clean-cut middle aged man wearing the reversed collar of a clergyman.

When I read his bumper sticker i just couldn't help but relate it to this thread:-

Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matthew 5 : 37

Again, nothing to do with keris --- or maybe everything to do with keris.

drdavid · 31st March 2010, 09:05 AM

Sombunall....is a word created by the rather off beat iconoclast writer Robert Anton Wilson, first mentioned in his book 'The New Inquisition'
He describes it as a word we badly need for describing many situations, things and ideas.........it stops us from getting stuck in the black/white, night/day, on/off etc dichotomy of thinking
It means 'some but not all'
In essence our perceptions involve abstractions (we only perceive part of a thing at any one time), we then generalise from groups of abstractions and come up with rules or facts and assume we KNOW something
In actuality we never know all, at best we know sombunall

David · 31st March 2010, 02:26 PM

Awesome Dr D. Another R.A. Wilson fan. I've read quite a bit of his work and saw him lecture a few times.

A. G. Maisey · 1st April 2010, 06:10 AM

Yes, true:- we all have only a part of knowledge in any field, and maybe what we regard as knowledge is not really knowledge at all.

I had never heard of R.A. Winston.

So I googleised him.

After reading a little bit about him I realised just how very fitting the quote on the bumper sticker might be.

20th March 2010, 02:44 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Nothing at all to do with keris. This post either has absolutely nothing to do with keris, or it has absolutely everything to do with keris. How you percieve its relevance to the keris is dependent upon how your mind works. At the heart of keris understanding for the modern collector, both within keris bearing cultures, and outside keris bearing cultures, is the question of origin in both geographic terms and in terms of age of the relevant keris. The way in which we address this question of origin can very often be quite humorous if we care to take two long steps back from the matter and address it in a purely objective and logical way. Without becoming too involved in discussion of the source of humour, it may be sufficient to observe that as a group, and individually, we tend to either take shelter in vagueness, or regard vagueness as certainty. We swim in a sea of vagueness. Recently I was lent a really wonderful book. Possibly the best bit of reading I've had in front of me in a long time:- Not Exactly: In praise of vagueness --- Kees van Deemter (Oxford University Press) As I have been reading it, I have constantly been amused by the matters treated in this book, and the attitudes and conventions of those of us who have an interest in the keris. If your mind functions in a way that relates ideas, characteristics, information , that is relevant to one sphere to similar ideas etc that are relevant in other spheres, and thus provide better understanding of the functionality of concepts within disparate spheres, you will enjoy this book:- http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~kvdeemte/NotExactly-book Here is a sample:- http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~kvdeemte/...eemter-c01.pdf However, if you seek clear-cut answers that progress in a straight line, you will very probably not enjoy it at all. If you do bring yourself to read it, you may better understand what we are dealing with when we set out to categorise keris.

21st March 2010, 05:54 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Vagueness Interesting topic on interesting book, May i quote this interesting statement of Mr van Deemter on vagueness, as Alan posted in this thread: ...In the course of this book, it will become clear that vagueness is everywhere: if you believe a concept to be completely crisp, then examine it more closely and it will often prove to be vague. Size-denoting terms such as ‘small’ and ‘large’ are obviously vague, for example, but so are colour terms, at least in ordinary language, where sharp boundaries are not artificially imposed on them... and also, ...The aim of this book is to explore how vagueness works, and why it pervades communication. It is part and parcel of this enterprise to ask why vagueness is not always a bad thing: we shall see that sometimes vagueness is simply unavoidable, while on other occasions vagueness is actually preferable to precision. We shall also devote considerable space to discussing the implications of our findings for the construction of Artificially Intelligent systems, which are slowly but surely starting to be endowed with a human-like capacity to produce and understand ordinary language.... We deal with vagueness, everyday, in our Warung kopi here. Are we all crisp? As Waroeng itself, in the daily meaning in Jawa is also a place of "vagueness" in the sense of people in Jawanese waroeng, sometimes will talk about serious things -- whether it is political matter, or criminal matter, even moral matter -- in a vague way.... GANJAWULUNG Last edited by ganjawulung; 21st March 2010 at 08:32 AM.

31st March 2010, 09:05 AM	#10
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Sombunall....is a word created by the rather off beat iconoclast writer Robert Anton Wilson, first mentioned in his book 'The New Inquisition' He describes it as a word we badly need for describing many situations, things and ideas.........it stops us from getting stuck in the black/white, night/day, on/off etc dichotomy of thinking It means 'some but not all' In essence our perceptions involve abstractions (we only perceive part of a thing at any one time), we then generalise from groups of abstractions and come up with rules or facts and assume we KNOW something In actuality we never know all, at best we know sombunall Last edited by drdavid; 31st March 2010 at 12:23 PM.

20th March 2010, 03:13 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	hmmm...i vote "absolutely everything to do with keris"...

20th March 2010, 03:41 AM	#3
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Very interesting. As someone who is just learning about all things keris, my mind is set on "Categorize" in order for me to remember terms and absorb knowledge more easily. It seems to me that the more experienced of veteran collectors and connoiseurs, such as Mr Maisey, are less inclined to categorize or critique and more inclined to appreciate the work that may go into a keris. Perhaps because of his more in-depth knowledge, perhaps because of his experiences with the keris, or maybe even because of some sort of cultural difference between he and others like myself on this message board. I am reminded from personal experience of Philippine edged weaponry, where (on this forum as well), we tend to try to set apart what a Sanduko is from a Tenegre or a Talibon from a Garab. In the Philippines, however, they are just known collectively and simply as "Bolo" or "Itak".

21st March 2010, 04:11 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	My 2 bits - Vagueness - one of the ways people use to deal with questions they cannot precisely answer, to make sense of the world which they cannot fully perceive or think about. A way to generate working patterns that can be used. The by-product of not being able to articulate what our brain has seen and known. What many people do to keep themselves from going insane.

21st March 2010, 05:04 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	My 1 bit.. what is clear is, no one knows everything for sure.. the more we know, the more we'll discover things that we do not.. the more we're sure, we'll discover information that will challenge our perceptions and theories.. Kai Wee, I like your 2 bits.. Categorize.. to a certain extend imho, is necessary.. In the keris world, to streamline certain forms, features and other such parameters, helps to form an opinion.. however, there will be exceptions.. for example, in the case of the Bugis keris blades, it covers a large geographical area, how can we tell them apart? Names, Nomenclatures.. to a certain extent helps to express/define what one is talking about.. but over time, I found that the variations are 'endless' from region to region.. to an extreme extent, from state to state.. (as mentioned by Alan before)..

21st March 2010, 10:30 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Think about tangguh --- or any other classificatory system for that matter --- in terms of the sorites paradox. Consider the reversal of poles in linguistics. Consider the point at which the vague becomes crisp, the threshold of relative certainty, and then consider this relationship to Eubulides. When used in a matrixical form with the elements of supposed "keris knowledge" the concepts addressed in this book cannot fail to amuse.

24th March 2010, 05:29 AM	#8
Laowang Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: 40˚00' N, 83˚00' W Posts: 52	Jorge Luis Borges, in his essay "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins", mentions an apocryphal Chinese encyclopedia in which: animals are divided into (a) those that belong to the Emperor, (b) embalmed ones, (c) those that are trained, (d) suckling pigs, (e) mermaids, (f) fabulous ones, (g) stray dogs, (h) those that are included in this classification, (i) those that tremble as if they were mad, (j) innumerable ones, (k) those drawn with a very fine camel's hair brush, (l) others, (m) those that have just broken a flower vase, (n) those that resemble flies from a distance. He concludes: It is clear that there is no classification of the Universe that is not arbitrary and full of conjectures. The reason for this is very simple: we do not know what kind of thing the universe is. I think that sums it up pretty well.

31st March 2010, 06:15 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	I was caught in a line of traffic this morning. In front of me was great big aggressive looking SUV , that was being driven by a very clean-cut middle aged man wearing the reversed collar of a clergyman. When I read his bumper sticker i just couldn't help but relate it to this thread:- Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matthew 5 : 37 Again, nothing to do with keris --- or maybe everything to do with keris.

31st March 2010, 02:26 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Awesome Dr D. Another R.A. Wilson fan. I've read quite a bit of his work and saw him lecture a few times.

1st April 2010, 06:10 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Yes, true:- we all have only a part of knowledge in any field, and maybe what we regard as knowledge is not really knowledge at all. I had never heard of R.A. Winston. So I googleised him. After reading a little bit about him I realised just how very fitting the quote on the bumper sticker might be.