Sheffield-made Kaskara

[stephen wood]

This kaskara is the only one known to me which has a British-produced blade: "SANDERSON BROS AND NEWBOULD LTD FOR PLATT BROS & Co LTD".

Sandersons were a well-known Sheffield steel producer who also made edged weapons - bayonets for the WD and excellent private purchase officers' swords. Platt Bros made textile machinery and munitions during The Great War. The very flexible blade, which has very straight, even fullers, was either actually made as a weapon or was made locally from a piece of spring steel. The blade profile inclines me to the latter.

Much about the whole speaks of quality and status - the guard sounds a note of bathos - produced I think by the modern method described by Ed.

I would not ascribe any great age - for example Sandersons used the older abbreviation LD during on their Great War swords as opposed to th more usual LTD seen here.

[Iain]

Nice piece Stephen. Always interesting to see the silver hilts, particularly with crocodile skin.

So if I understand correctly the use of LTD likely puts the date for the steel post 1918? Any idea when Sanderson switched to LTD? I would also imagine the blade was locally produced from sheet steel as the fullers seems to be of an age with the engraving. I'm not sure there was any export of ready made kaskara blades post WWI?

I agree about the guard, seems to conform to what Ed described, hopefully he can jump in here and confirm.

The large buckle is not something I have seen before. Have you encountered other buckles on kaskara baldrics? Looks very well made.

An intriguing piece, interesting to see the level of aging on leather and steel from the environment. Thanks for sharing.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been remiss in not thanking Stephen as well for sharing this most interesting kaskara blade, and as noted, an instance of sheet steel with some potentially intriguing history.
It seems well established that British industry was producing materials for the Sudan prior to Omdurman as well as for the Khedive of Egypt during the Condominium. The demand for 'Soudan' souveniers had Brirmingham producing spear heads and other items to supply industrious merchants in shops in Suakin c.1888 and later. Helmets and coats of mail were made in Birmingham for the Khedives forces, but the helmets proved acceptable with the mail completely unacceptable as with gunfire they produced horrible adsdition to the wounds.

While sheet steel seems to have been used in making local blades as noted earlier, it appears that these Sanderson Bros & Newbold Ltd for Platt Bros Ltd. blades must have been produced by this firm as is. It seems the firm name in that configuration began use in 1901. The Platt Bros. firm was a textile firm which undertook munitions contracts in WWI and thier name after 1931 showed it as a holding co, so the WWI period seems plausible.
Sanderson was producing bayonets in WWI (marked only Sanderson with 1916 and 1917 dates on some seen). On 1908 swords produced by this firm initials SB&N Ld (the Ld in subscript) were used.

It would seem possible that in the Condominium, during WWI, in British action against Ali Dinar, the defacto ruler of Darfur under Ottoman suzerainty, may have presented Great Britain the need for arming of additional local Sudanese native forces. Perhaps a number of these traditional sword blades may have been produced by this British war material grouping. While Darfur remained separate from British occupied Sudan, Ali Dinar had joined with Ottoman forces and declared jihad against the British and thier allies. In 1916 Ali Dinar was killed and Darfur annexed to the Sudan.

I thought this might be plausible and add to the interesting history which may be part of this blade, obviously rehilted much more recently as is normal with these swords.
The assala (python) in native symbolism is considered the ultimate power and presumably would imbue this power into the blade and the warrior. The stars in cosmological grouping would likely serve to enhance the symbolic.

I wanted to add this after some interesting research inspired by this blade and again to thank Stephen for sharing the blade here.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have been remiss in not thanking Stephen as well for sharing this most interesting kaskara blade, and as noted, an instance of sheet steel with some potentially intriguing history.
It seems well established that British industry was producing materials for the Sudan prior to Omdurman as well as for the Khedive of Egypt during the Condominium. The demand for 'Soudan' souveniers had Brirmingham producing spear heads and other items to supply industrious merchants in shops in Suakin c.1888 and later. Helmets and coats of mail were made in Birmingham for the Khedives forces, but the helmets proved acceptable with the mail completely unacceptable as with gunfire they produced horrible adsdition to the wounds.

While sheet steel seems to have been used in making local blades as noted earlier, it appears that these Sanderson Bros & Newbold Ltd for Platt Bros Ltd. blades must have been produced by this firm as is. It seems the firm name in that configuration began use in 1901. The Platt Bros. firm was a textile firm which undertook munitions contracts in WWI and thier name after 1931 showed it as a holding co, so the WWI period seems plausible.
Sanderson was producing bayonets in WWI (marked only Sanderson with 1916 and 1917 dates on some seen). On 1908 swords produced by this firm initials SB&N Ld (the Ld in subscript) were used.

It would seem possible that in the Condominium, during WWI, in British action against Ali Dinar, the defacto ruler of Darfur under Ottoman suzerainty, may have presented Great Britain the need for arming of additional local Sudanese native forces. Perhaps a number of these traditional sword blades may have been produced by this British war material grouping. While Darfur remained separate from British occupied Sudan, Ali Dinar had joined with Ottoman forces and declared jihad against the British and thier allies. In 1916 Ali Dinar was killed and Darfur annexed to the Sudan.

I thought this might be plausible and add to the interesting history which may be part of this blade, obviously rehilted much more recently as is normal with these swords.
The assala (python) in native symbolism is considered the ultimate power and presumably would imbue this power into the blade and the warrior. The stars in cosmological grouping would likely serve to enhance the symbolic.

I wanted to add this after some interesting research inspired by this blade and again to thank Stephen for sharing the blade here.

All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, I noted that the same company produced the steel for the famous sword of Leningrad presented to Stalin by Sir Winston Churchill ..see Sword of Stalin Wikileaks for a full account.

I remain completely baffled by the fact that a sword blade steel producer made a blade for a textile company... could that be some link to where the cotton was being brought from??... or as some sort of presentation piece?? Though I doubt that ... Something not right here...

I note that the company made excellent saw blades...and high quality machinery parts. Could it be that this wasn't a sword at all...? but a fine piece of saw blade or machinery part made into a sword...(as intimated by Stephen) and with the stamp already in place?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you so much for this very observant response, and especially for the added detail of the Sword of Stalingrad. I was completely unaware of that piece and it is most interesting that the steel was produced by Sanderson& Newbold. In material on the sword it is noted that the 'steel' was produced by this firm and the sword was forged by Wilkinson.
The firm was a steel producing company in Sheffield as noted from about c.1901 and before.
In wartime, any manufacturing firm can and usually will be 'retooled' for the war effort. In this case, a textile firm 'Platt Bros.' was indeed recruited to provide munitions as well as some machinery. Just how much textile production remained I am uncertain, but was certainly a good degree.
In WWII, bombers were built by many factories which had nothing to do with aviation....some appliance factories built them, car manufacturers etc. the lists are amazing.
During 1969 I worked for an electronics firm who produced warheads for 105 mm howitzers bound for Vietnam. The contracts were independant of the main production lines but produced by the same company heading.

The blades for many kaskaras are noted to have been produced during and after the Mahdiyya from lorry springs, and certainly other tool steel might have been used as well. In locally produced blades of such materials, the markings were not carefully guarded nor placed, as evidenced by other sheet steel blades with off center or partial remainders of original stock marks.
It is not unusual in many ethnographic weapons to discover these kinds of anomalies..I recall a Burmese 'silver' mounted dha from years ago where I found a discreetly placed stamp from Everready, the battery firm in the mounts.

The use of tools, especially files, is well known in weapons, and the first Bowie knife is actually believed fashioned from a file. This is especially common in SE Asia weapons as I understand.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim thank you so much for this very observant response, and especially for the added detail of the Sword of Stalingrad. I was completely unaware of that piece and it is most interesting that the steel was produced by Sanderson& Newbold. In material on the sword it is noted that the 'steel' was produced by this firm and the sword was forged by Wilkinson.
The firm was a steel producing company in Sheffield as noted from about c.1901 and before.
In wartime, any manufacturing firm can and usually will be 'retooled' for the war effort. In this case, a textile firm 'Platt Bros.' was indeed recruited to provide munitions as well as some machinery. Just how much textile production remained I am uncertain, but was certainly a good degree.
In WWII, bombers were built by many factories which had nothing to do with aviation....some appliance factories built them, car manufacturers etc. the lists are amazing.
During 1969 I worked for an electronics firm who produced warheads for 105 mm howitzers bound for Vietnam. The contracts were independant of the main production lines but produced by the same company heading.

The blades for many kaskaras are noted to have been produced during and after the Mahdiyya from lorry springs, and certainly other tool steel might have been used as well. In locally produced blades of such materials, the markings were not carefully guarded nor placed, as evidenced by other sheet steel blades with off center or partial remainders of original stock marks.
It is not unusual in many ethnographic weapons to discover these kinds of anomalies..I recall a Burmese 'silver' mounted dha from years ago where I found a discreetly placed stamp from Everready, the battery firm in the mounts.

The use of tools, especially files, is well known in weapons, and the first Bowie knife is actually believed fashioned from a file. This is especially common in SE Asia weapons as I understand.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim, Thanks for that detail... The Stengun (Stirling Turpin Enfield) story also has an interesting tale in that no factories were able to make the curved magazine however a miniature railways company filled the gap as they had the machinery to make curved miniature railtrack and with some modifications were turning out magazines for the Sten in no time at all... Interestingly the war office turned to sewing machine factories for machine gun technology in WW2 especially for precision machine guns on fighter aircraft as apparently the mechanisms are similar to sewing machines..!!

Often remodelled bedford truck springs are used on Omani work knives or taken straight from the Victorian Sheffield, or Solingen butter knives of the 19th C. In this case it is intriguing that apparently a machine part probably off a weaving machine has been made into an African sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Ibrahiim, this gives us some great perspective!
So Stephen.......any thoughts ?

[Sander]

Sorry for joining this thread so belatedly, but I have only just acquired my kaskara.
Stephen Wood wrote: "This kaskara is the only one known to me which has a British-produced blade: "SANDERSON BROS AND NEWBOULD LTD FOR PLATT BROS & Co LTD"
I hereby present another one with enough inscription recognizable to make this the second example. One can read: "...ADE BY", "FOR" and "LATT BROS & Co LTD". The blade is simple, no fullers, length 88,5 cm. No other inscriptions, except pehaps a very small hook? Number 1? on the back. The previous owner bought it in 1973 in Port Sudan. I look forward to any comments.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, Thanks for that detail... The Stengun (Stirling Turpin Enfield) story also has an interesting tale in that no factories were able to make the curved magazine however a miniature railways company filled the gap as they had the machinery to make curved miniature railtrack and with some modifications were turning out magazines for the Sten in no time at all...
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mmm Can you substantiate any of that story Ibrahim?

After all Sten guns from mk.1 to mk.5 all had straight magazines, so your story seems rather fanciful?

spiral

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
The Sterling had curved magazines but I can't remember any problems with said magazine production.
Regards,
Norman.

[Edster]

Stephen & Sander. Great rare blades that have both the steel supplier and machinery mfg. stamped on the blades.

As Stephen notes, Platt Bros. were the world's largest producer cotton processing machinery. Sudan exported to England much/most of the cotton produced on the Gezira Scheme south of Khartoum. Pratt likely exported machinery to the cotton industry in Sudan. My guess is that each blade was originally a blade of a cotton bale cutter or similar device. Stephen's likely had the traditional three fullers added locally. Sander's has no fullers and was apparently repurposed into a kaskara with little more than producing a second edge. Both swords have the chisel style cross-guards fashionable in Sennar. Sennar dam was built in 1926 to provide irrigation water to the Gerzira Scheme. This could date the swords to circa 1930.

Best regards,
Ed

[Edster]

Opps, double post. Sorry.

Stephen & Sander. Great rare blades that have both the steel supplier and machinery mfg. stamped on the blades.

As Stephen notes, Platt Bros. were the world's largest producer cotton processing machinery. Sudan exported much/most of the cotton produced on the Gezira Scheme south of Khartoum. Pratt likely exported machinery to the cotton industry in Sudan. My guess is that each blade was originally a blade of a cotton bale cutter or similar device. Stephen's had the traditional three fullers added locally. Sander's has no fullers and was apparently repurposed into a kaskara with little more than producing a second edge. Both swords have the chisel style cross-guards fashionable in Sennar. Sennar dam was built in 1926 to provide irrigation water to the Gerzira Scheme. This could date the swords to circa 1930.

Best regards,
Ed

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

mmm Can you substantiate any of that story Ibrahim?

After all Sten guns from mk.1 to mk.5 all had straight magazines, so your story seems rather fanciful?

spiral

Salaams spiral, I think you may be right and I cannot substantiate that part of the story except...as it transpires there was a company in Scotland that was making weapons for the Germans...I cant remember the Mark..but they were a Sewing Machine Company called ...Singer Sewing Machines.


SALAAMS SANDER, I HOPE THAT SLIGHT DERAILMENT DOESN'T SPOIL THE THREAD WHICH IS VERY INTERESTING AND ESPECIALLY AS ANOTHER SWORD HAS SURFACED WITH YOU ...AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Edster

Opps, double post. Sorry.

Stephen & Sander. Great rare blades that have both the steel supplier and machinery mfg. stamped on the blades.

As Stephen notes, Platt Bros. were the world's largest producer cotton processing machinery. Sudan exported much/most of the cotton produced on the Gezira Scheme south of Khartoum. Pratt likely exported machinery to the cotton industry in Sudan. My guess is that each blade was originally a blade of a cotton bale cutter or similar device. Stephen's had the traditional three fullers added locally. Sander's has no fullers and was apparently repurposed into a kaskara with little more than producing a second edge. Both swords have the chisel style cross-guards fashionable in Sennar. Sennar dam was built in 1926 to provide irrigation water to the Gerzira Scheme. This could date the swords to circa 1930.

Best regards,
Ed

Salaams Ed, Thoroughly good research Sir...I enjoyed that...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams spiral, I think you may be right and I cannot substantiate that part of the story except...as it transpires there was a company in Scotland that was making weapons for the Germans...I cant remember the Mark..but they were a Sewing Machine Company called ...Singer Sewing Machines.
.

Bonjour! Ibrahim!

I am.

I have a list of many hundreds of engineering firms who made parts for machine guns, rifles, grenades or also like Singer sewing machines bayonets in ww1 or ww2.

Mechanical engineering is all the same whether bicycles, sewing machines or guns.

It was the facts {or not} re.the curved magazine part & the miniature railway company sten magazine manufacture you had made, that I was questioning., as clearly that's incorrect.

[David R]

Bren Gun magazines?

[spiral]

Bren gun was a Czechoslovakian design.. Made at Enfield from mid 30s.....

The curved magazine wasn't a problem. Everybody made them..

[Sander]

SALAAMS SANDER, I HOPE THAT SLIGHT DERAILMENT DOESN'T SPOIL THE THREAD WHICH IS VERY INTERESTING AND ESPECIALLY AS ANOTHER SWORD HAS SURFACED WITH YOU ...AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM ...

Thanks Ibrahim, happy to join the forum, and thanks Ed for an interesting comment. Here is a picture of the possible small engraving on the back of the blade - if it is one at all. Any clues?

Best
Sander

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjour! Ibrahim!

I am.

I have a list of many hundreds of engineering firms who made parts for machine guns, rifles, grenades or also like Singer sewing machines bayonets in ww1 or ww2.

Mechanical engineering is all the same whether bicycles, sewing machines or guns.

It was the facts {or not} re.the curved magazine part & the miniature railway company sten magazine manufacture you had made, that I was questioning., as clearly that's incorrect.

Salaams Spiral...In fact before I make a mistake and derail rather...the thread... I have checked my dates on this particular machine company and indeed they did make arms...the 75 mm ships cannon for example and the 9mm Pistol...but I will let you check that;please see http://singermemories.com/guns-sewing-machines/ and note I have pushed the envelope back more than 100 years so bringing a flavour of antiquity into my throw away remark on the Sten...which is rather too young a subject. ...The old chap who related the story to me may have got it mixed up...as I suggest with the Sten...if nothing else it perhaps illustrates how the modern era influenced weapons and in the case of the sword situation at thread how a modern machine part became part of an old sword...if in fact it did?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Sander

SALAAMS SANDER, I HOPE THAT SLIGHT DERAILMENT DOESN'T SPOIL THE THREAD WHICH IS VERY INTERESTING AND ESPECIALLY AS ANOTHER SWORD HAS SURFACED WITH YOU ...AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM ...

Thanks Ibrahim, happy to join the forum, and thanks Ed for an interesting comment. Here is a picture of the possible small engraving on the back of the blade - if it is one at all. Any clues?

Best
Sander

Salaams Sander Whilst it could be a part of a blade mark my suggestion is that it is not...but it is always an interesting possibility. some odd looking strikes were simply a small cross, perhaps a shortened God is Great format but its always a great question... tap in blade marks on forum and cruise the library ...sorry tap on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral...In fact before I make a mistake and derail rather...the thread... I have checked my dates on this particular machine company and indeed they did make arms...the 75 mm ships cannon for example and the 9mm Pistol...but I will let you check that;please see http://singermemories.com/guns-sewing-machines/ and note I have pushed the envelope back more than 100 years so bringing a flavour of antiquity into my throw away remark on the Sten...which is rather too young a subject. ...The old chap who related the story to me may have got it mixed up...as I suggest with the Sten...if nothing else it perhaps illustrates how the modern era influenced weapons and in the case of the sword situation at thread how a modern machine part became part of an old sword...if in fact it did?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste! Ibrhaim! No one said singer didn't make arms Ibrahin..as I said most GB engineering firms did to a smaller or greater extent.

But thank you for all the filler words.

This is what I pointed out as fancifull... nothing else.....

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The Stengun (Stirling Turpin Enfield) story also has an interesting tale in that no factories were able to make the curved magazine however a miniature railways company filled the gap as they had the machinery to make curved miniature railtrack and with some modifications were turning out magazines for the Sten in no time at all... .

Simples!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Namaste! Ibrhaim! No one said singer didn't make arms Ibrahin..as I said most GB engineering firms did to a smaller or greater extent.

But thank you for all the filler words.

This is what I pointed out as fancifull... nothing else.....



Simples!

Salaams Spiral, Yes I'm glad you liked my interesting tale
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Shalom! Ibrahim!

Ahh yes of course ! I forgot your little pleasure..

Ill have to remember a little pseudonym for you so I remember.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi the teller of tall tales...

spiral