What is a KARUD?!

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

As far as I know, this word does not exist in any of the languages of the people who use the knife associated with it, and it is most likely a misnomer derived from the word "Kard" (meaning knife).

However, I have encountered this term on several occasions associated with a straight Pesh-kabz.

Is it a "correct" or better said accepted term for differentiating between a recurved Pesh-kabz and a straight one?

Is it more than simply a straight Pesh-kabz?

Regards,

Marius

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,


Is it more than simply a straight Pesh-kabz?

Regards,

Marius

Hi Marius,
I will say the same, straight with a strong flat back, one edged. But it's far from my area...
Best, Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Mariusgmioc, Looking at your other thread on the subject you are probably at the front end in this specialty, however, I spent some time in Kabul and couldn't get anywhere with Karud or Kard and like many names they don't light the blue touch paper when mentioned...it seems. This is not unusual as across the spectrum there is a lot of confusion in names of weapons especially those applied by world sword collectors which was apparently as infuriating to the old masters when concocting books about swords in the 19th C as it is now! Thus the question falls into the area of "whats in a word" for which there may be no answer.

[mahratt]

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic. After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic: http://historical-weapons.com/questi...ce-term-karud/

After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mahratt

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic. After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic: http://historical-weapons.com/questi...ce-term-karud/

After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

Thank you very much for the link!

This article would address exactly my questio but unfortunately, I could not find the article but only the abstract (which is quite interesting in itself as it concludes the term Karud exists and is correctly used to describe a straight Peshkabz).

However, I would be interested to read the arguments that led to this conclusion, as it may be based on some historical records that were flawed in the first place.

In other words, starting with flawed original information one will certainly end up with a flawed conclusion. And a flawed conclusion may easily end up being considered as the reference truth, providing it is vehiculated and publicized long enough.

Another issue is whether we should use or not a term in order to be more specific, whether that term is linguistically/historically correct or not?!

Regards,

Marius

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Mariusgmioc, Looking at your other thread on the subject you are probably at the front end in this specialty, however, I spent some time in Kabul and couldn't get anywhere with Karud or Kard and like many names they don't light the blue touch paper when mentioned...it seems. This is not unusual as across the spectrum there is a lot of confusion in names of weapons especially those applied by world sword collectors which was apparently as infuriating to the old masters when concocting books about swords in the 19th C as it is now! Thus the question falls into the area of "whats in a word" for which there may be no answer.

Precisely my point!

The word "kard" is of Persian origin and simply means knife. It has become to be associated with the rather typical single edged straight triangular blade of triangular cross-section knife, of Persian origin.

Like the word "bicaq" (c with a "," underneath) means also "knife and has become associated with the typical Ottoman knife similar to a Kard, but with a slightly curved up edge towards the tip and and specifically shaped rear quillon (somehow similar to a hawk's bill, or a Yatagan hilt).

[mahratt]

As long as the article is published only in Russian. But, sure to be a variant of the English language.

And anyone interested in the matter, will be able to verify whether that term is linguistically/historically correct or not

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

As far as I know, this word does not exist in any of the languages of the people who use the knife associated with it, and it is most likely a misnomer derived from the word "Kard" (meaning knife).

However, I have encountered this term on several occasions associated with a straight Pesh-kabz.

Is it a "correct" or better said accepted term for differentiating between a recurved Pesh-kabz and a straight one?

Is it more than simply a straight Pesh-kabz?

Regards,

Marius

We actually have no real proof that the term "karud" was not used by any of the people associated with it, you would have to study Persian, Afghan, and Indian sources throughly, even then the evidence may not have been written down etc. There is no proof that I know of that "karud" is a mistaken use of the term "kard", just one of several theories.

As far as I am concerned, if the term is good enough for Artzi then it is good enough for me. You have to use some term to differentiate between the two similar but substantially different forms (straight blade and curved blade).

[ariel]

Eric,

This approach is fine if we accept terms "Khyber knife or Salawar Yataghan" as an authentic name for Selaawa (or whatever other phonetic rendition to define an Afghani short sword of a characteristic form). Or using " Pulwar" to designate an Afghani version of Tulwar with a specific handle instead of a locally-used "Shamshir". Stenography has its uses and charms.

Just like you, I am also not particularly bothered by the usage of "Karud", as long as I remember that the best title for an article about it would be " Karud: a Comedy of Errors"

The "name game" is a fertile ground for pseudo-discoveries , especially if it is based on attempted phonetizations of foreign words. Professor Higgins, just like Henry Moser, never visited Afghanistan:-)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Eric,

This approach is fine if we accept terms "Khyber knife or Salawar Yataghan" as an authentic name for Selaawa (or whatever other phonetic rendition to define an Afghani short sword of a characteristic form). Or using " Pulwar" to designate an Afghani version of Tulwar with a specific handle instead of a locally-used "Shamshir". Stenography has its uses and charms.

Just like you, I am also not particularly bothered by the usage of "Karud", as long as I remember that the best title for an article about it would be " Karud: a Comedy of Errors"

The "name game" is a fertile ground for pseudo-discoveries , especially if it is based on attempted phonetizations of foreign words. Professor Higgins, just like Henry Moser, never visited Afghanistan:-)

Ariel, I do not think we have to accept any of the currently used names as being "authentic", but we do need some commonly accepted terms, if not "karud" for the straight bladed relative of the pesh then what? Same for the khyber knife, khanjar, jambiya, kard etc.

When someone that I know tells me they have a "karud" I understand what they are describing, that is useful to me, were and when this name came into use is a secondary question and it is very interesting to delve into this subject but we do need descriptive terms that the majority of interested people can agree on. On another note, people who speak English as a primary language often use terms that are different than people who speak another language such as German or Italian etc.

[mahratt]

It's funny when people had the opportunity to read your article (in Russian) mentions some facts, but "forgets" to others. More slightly and respected Ariel begins to say that Alexander Burnes never visited Afghanistan (I give in article link to its word.)

I think it is worth to wait for the article in English, so that everyone can make about the article his unbiased opinion and decide whether one and would it term (name) correct in respect the "curved" and "direct" *

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ariel, I do not think we have to accept any of the currently used names as being "authentic", but we do need some commonly accepted terms, if not "karud" for the straight bladed relative of the pesh then what? Same for the khyber knife, khanjar, jambiya, kard etc.

When someone that I know tells me they have a "karud" I understand what they are describing, that is useful to me, were and when this name came into use is a secondary question and it is very interesting to delve into this subject but we do need descriptive terms that the majority of interested people can agree on. On another note, people who speak English as a primary language often use terms that are different than people who speak another language such as German or Italian etc.

Absolutely right, estcrh

[mariusgmioc]

Yes, it makes perfect sense to use a term that is commonly accepted in order to define an object.

I agree that when refering to a Pesh-kabz there is more ambiguity about the type of dagger we are talking about. Is it recurved, is it straight, does it have single edge or double false edge, etc. Yet when we say Choora, for example everybody knows exactly what type of Pesh-kabz we are talking about.

So KARUD it is!

Maybe for you guys it was trivial, but for me was interesting and educative! Thank you for your comments.

I still would love to read the whole article Mahratt send us the link to, as I bet it is very interesting. I was wondering wheteher we can access somehow the Russian version and Google translate it?!


PS: Can we assume that the Choora is a particular type of Karud (with aparticularly shaped hilt and generally metal front bolster)?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I still would love to read the whole article Mahratt send us the link to, as I bet it is very interesting. I was wondering wheteher we can access somehow the Russian version and Google translate it?!

My friend, I can send you my article in Russian. Send me on the forum a personal message with the name your e-mail.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Can we assume that the Choora is a particular type of Karud (with aparticularly shaped hilt and generally metal front bolster)?

If you are interested, my opinion, I think it the Choora is derived from Karud. But the Choora not equal Karud

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

PS: Can we assume that the Choora is a particular type of Karud (with aparticularly shaped hilt and generally metal front bolster)?

Here is my version of the common varieties, all distinctively different enough for each type to be easily distinguishable from each other.

Pesh

Karud

Choora

Kard

Jambiya

[mahratt]

I think the most telling of all known image from Artzi:

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think the most telling of all known image from Artzi:

That would be also my understanding in the light of all discussed above. Both sets of photos are very clear and clarifying. Thank you again!

However, in your first photos, what you call Jambiya, I would have called Khanjar. For me Jambiya would be the typical Yemeni/Saudi dagger (as well as the Omani Khanjar).

What do you think about this?

But maybe we should open a new thread to debate the difference between Jambyia and Khanjar?!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

That would be also my understanding in the light of all discussed above. Both sets of photos are very clear and clarifying. Thank you again!

However, in your first photos, what you call Jambiya, I would have called Khanjar. For me Jambiya would be the typical Yemeni/Saudi dagger (as well as the Omani Khanjar).

What do you think about this?

But maybe we should open a new thread to debate the difference between Jambyia and Khanjar?!

Jambiya have a single curved, double edged blade, khanjar have a double curved, double edged blade. People from Arabian regions often interchange these terms but there is a very noticeable difference between the two blade types. Jambiya and khanjar are two more examples of descriptive terms which allows people to instantly know which dagger you are describing.

Once again were are talking about how these two terms are generally used in the West by English speaking collectors and dealers etc and not by the cultures that actually used them.

Two examples from Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour By Lord Egerton of Tatton and India: Art and Culture, 1300-1900 By Stuart Cary Welch, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jambiya have a single curved, double edged blade, khanjar have a double curved, double edged blade. People from Arabian regions often interchange these terms but there is a very noticeable difference between the two blade types. Jambiya and khanjar are two more examples of descriptive terms which allows people to instantly know which dagger you are describing.

Once again were are talking about how these two terms are generally used in the West by English speaking collectors and dealers etc and not by the cultures that actually used them.

Two examples from Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour By Lord Egerton of Tatton and India: Art and Culture, 1300-1900 By Stuart Cary Welch, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)

I beg to differ on this one!

Khanjar is a Persian/Arabic word and they use it for their single curved daggers.

It was imported to India together with the expansion of the Mughal Empire and so the Indians adopted the term for many of their daggers (especially those from the Northern part), single or double curved.

Restricting the term to only double curved daggers, I think would be wrong as it would exclude precisely the daggers where it originated from.



PS: You can also check what Artzi has to say on this one too!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I beg to differ on this one!

Khanjar is a Persian/Arabic word and they use it for their single curved daggers.

It was imported to India together with the expansion of the Mughal Empire and so the Indians adopted the term for many of their daggers (especially those from the Northern part), single or double curved.

Restricting the term to only double curved daggers, I think would be wrong as it would exclude precisely the daggers where it originated from.



PS: You can also check what Artzi has to say on this one too!

Sorry, I have to go with Stuart Cary Welch here.

His first paid position at Harvard was in 1956, as honorary assistant keeper of Islamic Art at the Fogg Museum. He later developed one of the first curricula for Islamic and Indian art. He was curator of Islamic and Later Indian art at the Harvard Art Museum, and from 1979 to 1987, he was also special consultant for the department of Islamic art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Welch taught at Harvard until his retirement in 1995, and he donated much of his collection to the school. The remainder of his personal collection was auctioned by Sotheby's in 2011. On 6 April 2011, a single page from the Shahnameh of Shah Tahmasp (The Houghton Shahnameh) of which Weich was the leading scholar, was sold for 7.4 million pounds ($12 million).

Do you really think that these completely different blade types should have the same name?

[Miguel]

Absolutely fascinating post Marius, something that I have wondered myself and now have a better understanding, it is better than any reference books, cant wait for the next reply. Brilliant.
Regards
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Sorry, I have to go with Stuart Cary Welch here.




Do you really think that these completely different blade types should have the same name?

First, they are not absolutely different.

Second,
1. What about Artzi who you cited as being very knowledgeable and thrustworthy yourself?!
2. What about Stone, page 351, and page 353 fig. 1?!
3. What about Elgood, Arms & Armour at the Jaipur Court, pages 53 and 54?!
4. What about Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, Arms and Armor from Iran, from page 219 on
5, What about Withers & Capwell, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Knives, Swords, Spears & Daggers, page 228, 229
7. What about the millions and millions of Persians who probably invented both the dagger and the word, used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar (photos 4, 5).
8. What about the millions and millions of Omanis who probably invented the specific variety of dagger (the one with the belt in the photo 3), used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar?!
9. What about the millions and millions of North Indians who used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar whether curved or double curved (photos 1, 2)?!



However, ultimately it is a matter of choice, and the choice is yours. If you want to give Stuart Cary Welch credit over the millions of Persians who invented the dagger and the word...

PS: The definition for Khanjar you used in your posting (the excerpt from the book) perfectly describes my examples as well. According to the definition you mentioned they are all Khanjars. In English "recurved" simply means curved backwards, NOT double curved. Moreover, the Persians and the Arabs who are credited with originating this word, would not refer to a double curved dagger since they don't use such a dagger but a simple "recurved" one (as in photos 3-5).

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In English "recurved" simply means curved backwards, NOT double curved.

I think you are wrong, recurved refers to a blade that curves twice.

From Arms and Armor By DK Publishing and Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India By E. Jaiwant Paul.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I think you are wrong, recurved refers to a blade that curves twice.

I thought exactly the same... until I bothered to check with some dictionaries of English language. Check it yourself!

And even if it were to mean double curve, what about the millions of Persians, Arabs and Indians who use this type of dagger with single curve and call it Khanjar?!

Try telling an Omani that he is using a Jambyia because an academic in UK, who knows better, decided this way!


PS I have the book of Jaiwant Paul, but he makes the distinction because of the hilt, not because of the blade. I have been to India and I can assure you the Indians (at least all to whom I spoke with) do not distinguish between single or double curve dagger that has the typical grip and call them both either Khanjar or Mughal dagger providing they have the "pistol" hilt. However they call Jambyia the Persian Khanjars with "I" shaped hilt.

Photo taken in the fort museum of Jodhpur. All daggers on the left were called Khanjars. The two Karuds, were called Peshkabz.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And even if it were to mean double curve, what about the millions of Persians, Arabs and Indians who use this type of dagger with single curve and call it Khanjar?!

Try telling an Omani that he is using a Jambyia because an academic in UK, who knows better, decided this way!

When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved. As I mentioned already, in English speaking countries it is not what the local people call a certain weapon that determines the eventual description in English. What an Omani calls his dagger is a seperate issue. Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved. As I mentioned already, in English speaking countries it is not what the local people call a certain weapon that determines the eventual description in English. What an Omani calls his dagger is a seperate issue. Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?

1. "When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved." Now you are redefining English language to serve your purpose.

2. "Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?"I would assume the country that originated the word... and the weapon. In this case the Persians/Arabs. Do you know better?

3. You are deliberately avoiding the issues for which you don't have convenient answers. Like what about references I quoted? What about the straight bladed or single curved Indian daggers on the left side of the photo in the museum in Jodhpur?

4. It is as I said: you are free to call them as you wish.

5. Have a nice weekend!

[Kubur]

Please guys, it's just fun. We have the same passion.
It's not so important.
I think we have plenty of threads on this topic.
khanjar is like kancar in Turkish or even kinjal, a dagger.
Just bigger than a knife and curved I don't know... no???

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

1. "When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved." Now you are redefining English language to serve your purpose.

I only point out what is available as far as references go, here is an example. While you may have your own thoughts as to what "recurved" means, when it comes to dagger blades it is a common term for a double curved blade, Runjeet uses the term "recurved" to describe a double curved blade. Artzi uses "recurving" to describe a double curved blade as well.

As for "khanjar", for many people it describes a recurved dagger as opposed to a single curved dagger.

[ariel]

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.


In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians.

Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them.

Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language.

The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian.

The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil.

Is it worth arguing or writing articles about?


Cheer up! :-))))))))))

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.


In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians.

Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them.

Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language.

The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian.

The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil.

Is it worth arguing or writing articles about?


Cheer up! :-))))))))))

Couldn't agree more!


Have a happy weekend!