Thibetan sword hilt wanted

eftihis · 20th June 2007, 09:19 AM

Hallo, i have a thibetan sword without a handle! Anyone with a spare handle that could fit?

Regards,
EFtihis

josh stout · 21st June 2007, 04:15 PM

Sorry I can't help you at the moment, but I will keep a look out for you. Do you know the provenance of this? It looks like it is from Eastern Tibet. Could you show some close-ups? The sabers from Eastern Tibet have different handle fittings than those from Central and Western Tibet. Also a close-up of the tang would help.
Josh

dennee · 21st June 2007, 05:17 PM

I'm thinking that the scabbard looks Bhutanese (brass fittings, tripartite organization) with the gadrooned throat piece slid down, and that rough patch on the brass may be where the metal loop for the suspension thong was formerly attached. A measurement of the blade length would suggest if it falls into the typical range for Bhutanses swords.

I'd be interested in seeing a close-up of the tang, particularly its end.

The appropriate hilt would probably be of a wood waisted but octagonal-section grip, covered with shagreen or woven wire, and capped with a "gubor" type pommel, either of cast openwork or sheet white metal. The base of the hilt would have a garroned brass ring---a vestigial guard, if you will---similar to that on the scabbard.

I suppose the blade could be remounted with another type of hilt, but then it wouldn't match the scabbard very well.

josh stout · 21st June 2007, 07:47 PM

[QUOTE=dennee]I'm thinking that the scabbard looks Bhutanese (brass fittings, tripartite organization) with the gadrooned throat piece slid down, and that rough patch on the brass may be where the metal loop for the suspension thong was formerly attached. A measurement of the blade length would suggest if it falls into the typical range for Bhutanses swords.

I'd be interested in seeing a close-up of the tang, particularly its end.
QUOTE]

I see what you mean about the saber being possibly Bhutanese. I thought eastern Tibet because of the undecorated brass looking like Eastern examples. However, a Bhutanese origin is more consistent. I don't think the Eastern scabbards have metalwork at the scabbard mouth.

As you say, the tip of the tang is important. Was the tang peened over (it doesn't look like it)? However the flat end of the tang may be due to a crude refitting at some point. Many Chinese swords without handles had the tip of the tang filed off so that a simple piece of wood could be more easily attached.
Josh

dennee · 21st June 2007, 09:18 PM

Josh, you're right on with what I was thinking---is the end of the tang essentially flat because that's the way it was made or because the end was cut off, possibly even to remove the pommel without destroying it (although at least some Bhutanese pommels have something of a screw-type arrangement to secure it, but it's not clear to me whether that is attached to the tang)?

dennee · 21st June 2007, 11:36 PM

It strikes me that a Bhutanese hilt alone is not somethign that someone would keep around---except perhaps for one of the cast pommels. Reduced to their consituents parts, they are a wood core, some kind of wrap (wire or shagreen), and the pommel---nothing very valuable to the Bhutanese for reuse except for the pommel, especially considering that, if it came apart, it was likely broken in some fashion. I corresponded with someone recently who has a Bhutanese sword whose hilt comes off (and goes back on--evidence of a lack of a through tang?), but it's still associated with the rest of the weapon.

If you can't find a pommel in Bhutan (!), it's possible that you could find a cast pommel from a dealer, perhaps someone like Robert Hales in London. The wood core could be fabricated, and the simplest wrap would probably be to glue a piece of rayskin on. Finally, if you don't find one of the finer, cast pommels, you could probably have one fabricated out of thin sheet metal, as some pommels were essentially plain caps.

eftihis · 25th June 2007, 08:11 AM

Hi, thank you for all the info and interesting discussion. I attach photos of the hilt, blade pattern. I am afraid i do not know the provenance.

josh stout · 25th June 2007, 05:11 PM

My guess is the tang was filed flat, a crude handle was made, and then the bit sticking out the end was hammered flat with the new handle. You can see the lip at the end of the tang. I have seen several Chinese blades with a similar look. (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...-1000-full.jpg)

The closest thing I could find to a replacement handle was this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-CHINESE-MILI...QQcmdZViewItem

It would not really do though.
Josh

20th June 2007, 09:19 AM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 504	Thibetan sword hilt wanted Hallo, i have a thibetan sword without a handle! Anyone with a spare handle that could fit? Regards, EFtihis Attached Images

25th June 2007, 08:11 AM	#7
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 504	Hi, thank you for all the info and interesting discussion. I attach photos of the hilt, blade pattern. I am afraid i do not know the provenance. Attached Images

21st June 2007, 04:15 PM	#2
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Sorry I can't help you at the moment, but I will keep a look out for you. Do you know the provenance of this? It looks like it is from Eastern Tibet. Could you show some close-ups? The sabers from Eastern Tibet have different handle fittings than those from Central and Western Tibet. Also a close-up of the tang would help. Josh

21st June 2007, 05:17 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I'm thinking that the scabbard looks Bhutanese (brass fittings, tripartite organization) with the gadrooned throat piece slid down, and that rough patch on the brass may be where the metal loop for the suspension thong was formerly attached. A measurement of the blade length would suggest if it falls into the typical range for Bhutanses swords. I'd be interested in seeing a close-up of the tang, particularly its end. The appropriate hilt would probably be of a wood waisted but octagonal-section grip, covered with shagreen or woven wire, and capped with a "gubor" type pommel, either of cast openwork or sheet white metal. The base of the hilt would have a garroned brass ring---a vestigial guard, if you will---similar to that on the scabbard. I suppose the blade could be remounted with another type of hilt, but then it wouldn't match the scabbard very well.

21st June 2007, 07:47 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	[QUOTE=dennee]I'm thinking that the scabbard looks Bhutanese (brass fittings, tripartite organization) with the gadrooned throat piece slid down, and that rough patch on the brass may be where the metal loop for the suspension thong was formerly attached. A measurement of the blade length would suggest if it falls into the typical range for Bhutanses swords. I'd be interested in seeing a close-up of the tang, particularly its end. QUOTE] I see what you mean about the saber being possibly Bhutanese. I thought eastern Tibet because of the undecorated brass looking like Eastern examples. However, a Bhutanese origin is more consistent. I don't think the Eastern scabbards have metalwork at the scabbard mouth. As you say, the tip of the tang is important. Was the tang peened over (it doesn't look like it)? However the flat end of the tang may be due to a crude refitting at some point. Many Chinese swords without handles had the tip of the tang filed off so that a simple piece of wood could be more easily attached. Josh

21st June 2007, 09:18 PM	#5
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Josh, you're right on with what I was thinking---is the end of the tang essentially flat because that's the way it was made or because the end was cut off, possibly even to remove the pommel without destroying it (although at least some Bhutanese pommels have something of a screw-type arrangement to secure it, but it's not clear to me whether that is attached to the tang)?

21st June 2007, 11:36 PM	#6
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	It strikes me that a Bhutanese hilt alone is not somethign that someone would keep around---except perhaps for one of the cast pommels. Reduced to their consituents parts, they are a wood core, some kind of wrap (wire or shagreen), and the pommel---nothing very valuable to the Bhutanese for reuse except for the pommel, especially considering that, if it came apart, it was likely broken in some fashion. I corresponded with someone recently who has a Bhutanese sword whose hilt comes off (and goes back on--evidence of a lack of a through tang?), but it's still associated with the rest of the weapon. If you can't find a pommel in Bhutan (!), it's possible that you could find a cast pommel from a dealer, perhaps someone like Robert Hales in London. The wood core could be fabricated, and the simplest wrap would probably be to glue a piece of rayskin on. Finally, if you don't find one of the finer, cast pommels, you could probably have one fabricated out of thin sheet metal, as some pommels were essentially plain caps.

25th June 2007, 05:11 PM	#8
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	My guess is the tang was filed flat, a crude handle was made, and then the bit sticking out the end was hammered flat with the new handle. You can see the lip at the end of the tang. I have seen several Chinese blades with a similar look. (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...-1000-full.jpg) The closest thing I could find to a replacement handle was this. http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-CHINESE-MILI...QQcmdZViewItem It would not really do though. Josh