Rapier ID

[SwordLover79]

Hello Gang: I recently purchased this rapier at an auction in LA. 40 inch blade and 49.25 inches overall. The hilt is coated with silver and silver dots. It was simply described as European. I am thinking English hilt - circa 1600? The writing/symbols on the blade and ricasso are hard to decipher. Any ideas regarding country and date of origin are welcome.

[Reventlov]

The style of decoration, with many small studs covering almost every surface, goes back much earlier in the 16th century. It can be seen in a number of Spanish, Italian, and French portraits - below is Don Carlos, the ill-fated son of Philip II, painted in 1564. The style of the guard is much later of course, probably others here can tell you more about than I can.

[werecow]

My layman's guess would also go to English cavalier hilt, maybe British civil war era? Would be good to see a closeup of the writing in the fuller.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

... Would be good to see a closeup of the writing in the fuller ...

Yes, a good idea.

[SwordLover79]

my best attempt to photograph the marks in the fullers...thanks for your help!!!

[fernando]

Really a hard job to figure out. Looks like both pictures are from the same side; maybe the other side shows different lettering. Also looks like these two are upside down .


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[Reventlov]

It looks to me there are only three letters (M, A or V, and..?) that repeat in semi-regular order, not an actual word or name. There are other examples like this - I have seen several recently, but now I can only remember this one, marked CAINO, with on either side the letters:

N S R N S R N S G

https://www.rct.uk/collection/search...3/rapier-blade

[Jim McDougall]

These letter groupings are acrostics, well known to have been used in these Brescian regions of Italy on their blades in 16th-17th c. They are often first letters of phrases, mottos, or invocations however in these repeated letter forms may have other arcane significance.
As noted, CAINO was one of the key proponents of this fashion.

[werecow]

Is it me or does that say "MAMA"?

[SwordLover79]

I can assure you that the photos are of the two sides of the blade. They do look identical. In addition to the symbols/characters inside the fullers, there are small punched or engraved arrow or cross shapes at the end of each fuller.

[fernando]

SwordLover, time for you to have a look in the ricasso, (inside the hilt 'basket') and check whether the CAINO personal marks are struck in there.



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[Jim McDougall]

Here are some entries from ""The Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820"
AVB Norman, 1980.

Next from "Rapiers", Eric Valentine, 1968

Then from "The Smallsword in England, J.Aylward, 1945.

The Norman entry pretty much supports the English attribution.

The Valentine entry notes the strong connection between German and English of course, a very long standing relationship in weaponry.
By the same token, Italian influences were profoundly extended into Germany, and it would not be surprising to see German work spuriously imitating these Brescian conventions.

The Aylward entry is shown to illustrate the English revival of older style in the manner often followed in their admiration for neo classicism.
This small sword has the elaborate ajoure imitation of bead work c. 1775 which was essentially the sunset of the small sword, but highly regarded in the gentry and courts.

These just offer some possibilities for the overall styling of this rapier.
On the ricasso area of the blade it is often seen with various makers marks and CAINO, sometimes a spurious Toledo guild mark O and T


Sir James Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, various entries) describes numerous rapiers, all with CAINO blades, various marks and typically dated c.1610 (one as early as 1580) on Flemish, German hilts, one on a Spanish cuphilt c. 1625.
The letter combinations are the same sequencing, using various letters, often reversed on the opposing blade face.
i.e. RSNRSNRSND , one side SRNSRNSRND other. The same three letters repeated three times then with a separate terminating letter.

Other combinations EBCEBCEBC B, then ECBECBECB E note in this case terminating letter is different. this one was on an German hilt, the blade shown as Milanese (Brescian) but with notes of these similar hilts being English 1580-1610 as well.

[werecow]

I don't have a working scanner atm but hilt 85 on page 158 of "The Rapier and Small Sword" (dated 1625-1640) is somewhat similar (although it lacks the quillons). Hilt 88 has fewer rings around the plates (but it has the quillons). This shape is deeper, more like that of a Spanish cuphilt but executed in cavalier hilt style (with the rings linked by the curled cross branching structures). An interesting mix.

EDIT: Oh, right, I have a phone with a camera! Picture added. Not sure why it's sideways as the orientation is normal on my PC.

[SwordLover79]

Fernando: I included close-up photos of the marks on the ricasso in the first group of pix. Those photos were taken with a macro lens with the best lighting I could provide. Short of disassembling the sword, I reached my photographic limits. However, the symbols on the blade are actually quite clear and consistent under magnification. I drew the symbols and added a photo if that helps.

[SwordLover79]

my example looks very similar to the English Hilt Type B described by Oakschott in "European Weapons and Armour from the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution", 1980 Plate 13

[fernando]

Originally Posted by SwordLover79

Fernando: I included close-up photos of the marks on the ricasso in the first group of pix....

So sorry for having overlooked that. Yet very hard to relate such marks in the ricasso with those known to be Caino's ... i guess .

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These letter groupings are acrostics, well known to have been used in these Brescian regions of Italy on their blades in 16th-17th c. They are often first letters of phrases, mottos, or invocations however in these repeated letter forms may have other arcane significance.
As noted, CAINO was one of the key proponents of this fashion.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Sir James Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, various entries) describes numerous rapiers, all with CAINO blades, various marks and typically dated c.1610 (one as early as 1580) on Flemish, German hilts, one on a Spanish cuphilt c. 1625.
The letter combinations are the same sequencing, using various letters, often reversed on the opposing blade face.
i.e. RSNRSNRSND , one side SRNSRNSRND other. The same three letters repeated three times then with a separate terminating letter.

Thanks Jim for reminding me of these! Do you know if anyone has attempted to decipher any of these acrostics? The RSN/SRN sequence has commonalities with much older medieval inscriptions, can't help but wonder if this is more than coincidence...

[fernando]

Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though.


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[cornelistromp]

the rapier is english and with a screwed nuckleguard on the pommel circa 1630-1640.
The inscription in the fuller MOMOM can be found on the following rapiers, among others.
one landsknecht rapier in my collection from the second half of the 16th century in combination with a crowned B , probably Peter Tesche Solingen.
A598 in the wallace collection , also with a crowned B on the ricasso.
The Keasbey sale 1924, lot 231 ( also has a silver incrusted hilt)
The Keasbey sale 1925 lot 104. this is multi bar rapier ( skeleton - or spangen rapier)

but..... lot Keasbey 1925 lot 105 , looks a lot like the above rapier and is described as one of the most important pieces from this collection.

best
Jasper

[SwordLover79]

Jasper: your insights are remarkable! Thanks you very much.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=fernando;279150]Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though.


Thanks Fernando, good thread! but havent been back down that road in a while. Definitely one I'd like to look into deeper, so many roads.....never enough time .

It does seem it was a matter of both, not just one or the other.

[fernando]

One thing remains to be known; whose is this mark ?


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[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by SwordLover79

Jasper: your insights are remarkable! Thanks you very much.

welcome.