Luk 1 or 3

Newsteel · 12th September 2008, 05:28 AM

Hi Keris fanatics...

Damar murub, a name of keris dapur normally found in central to eastern Java until Bali. However, rarely we get to see this type of keris. In books, written that this dapur is of Luk 3 and some mention to be Luk 1. How and when can we tell if it is Luk 1 or 3. And why?

Below are 2 examples of dapur Damur Murub I've seen. One with a straight body and luk at the tip, and the other has slightly curve body follow by the luk.

Marcokeris · 12th September 2008, 07:09 AM

I know that Damar Murub is a 3 luks dapur on the top of the blade (the same of your pics).There are also two other similar three luks but they are in the middle of the blade or at the beginning of the blade... but i don't remember these dapur names.

Rick · 12th September 2008, 06:22 PM

One luk ?
The curve is extreme in this blade .

When does a sepokal type form become one luk ?

semar · 13th September 2008, 09:15 AM

hallo marcokeris you mean this type of three loek

regarts semar

A. G. Maisey · 14th September 2008, 03:18 PM

The Surakarta Karaton Pakem does not list Luk Satu.

You've got straight keris, then you go to three waves.

There is no luk satu keris. In fact, its simply not possible.

You count the waves of a keris by starting with the blade pointing up and the gandik to your left, the dip immediately above the gandik is counted as luk # 1. You move from side to side across the blade as you count and you must finish with an uneven number. There is no choice:- the keris is a symbol of the male, uneven numbers are male numbers, all keris must have an uneven number of luk.

Yes, I know somebody out there has a keris where the tip of the blade veers off to the right, and they think they can count this as an even number of luk.

Wrong.

You need to add one to the count to make it uneven.

The male is not associated with female numbers, and the keris is male.

David · 14th September 2008, 05:04 PM

Hi Alan. I am in full agreement with your statements, but i also wonder how you count on a blade like Semar's in the post just above yours. I have always understood that the counting of luks precedes upward towards the tip. To count Semar's keris as luk 3 seems to require that we move downward from the first count. So is this seen as a lurus blade with an unusal bend?

A. G. Maisey · 14th September 2008, 10:36 PM

G'day David. This brings us back to a previous discussion. If a keris does not comply with pakem it is not a keris:- it is a keris-like object--- or to be polite:- diluar pakem---outside the guidelines.

Semar's keris is outside the guidelines, thus in the strictest sense, and most certainly for application of any of the protocol that is used in keris appraisal, this cannot be appraised as one would appraise a keris.

The reason for any number of luk is locked into the symbolic and talismanic requirements that were called upon when the keris was made.

If it were necessary to produce a keris with an even factor, this even factor was produced in a way other than by producing something that fell outside the guidelines that govern the composition of a keris. To me it would seem to indicate that the maker was probably only a smith , or perhaps a beginner, who was not yet sufficiently knowledgeable.

Newsteel · 15th September 2008, 05:32 AM

Interesting to know that the Kraton Pakem does not list keris with Luk 1, as it should be Luk 3 onwards. This was also recognised by older books written. But I find the later books to be otherwise including example like one posted by Semar, called as dapur Luk 1. Is that dapur Sengkol?

PenangsangII · 15th September 2008, 09:34 AM

in northern Malaysia term, Rick's so called sepokal is lok 1, though i would prefer calling it lurus (usually sepokal has to be curvy).

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2008, 10:40 AM

One is the correct numeric value for a straight keris, but that does not make it a keris with one wave.

If "luk satu" is valid terminology in some areas, I suspect that what we might be seeing is a local corruption of a half understood idea.

PenangsangII · 15th September 2008, 12:01 PM

back to the original question, I think hurubing dilah has to be called lok 3

David · 15th September 2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsteel

Interesting to know that the Kraton Pakem does not list keris with Luk 1, as it should be Luk 3 onwards. This was also recognised by older books written. But I find the later books to be otherwise including example like one posted by Semar, called as dapur Luk 1. Is that dapur Sengkol?

I think that you may have missed Alan's point. If Semar's keris is outside of any accepted kraton pakem i don't think you can call it by any accepted dhapur, can you?

"Semar's keris is outside the guidelines, thus in the strictest sense, and most certainly for application of any of the protocol that is used in keris appraisal, this cannot be appraised as one would appraise a keris."

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2008, 02:03 PM

Urubing dilah is a three wave dhapur.

Those who would name it as a straight dhapur are in disagreement with the pakem produced under the aegis of Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Harya Hadiwijaya, son of Ingkang Sinuhun Kanjeng Susuhunan Pakubuwana X of Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat.

12th September 2008, 05:28 AM	#1
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Luk 1 or 3 Hi Keris fanatics... Damar murub, a name of keris dapur normally found in central to eastern Java until Bali. However, rarely we get to see this type of keris. In books, written that this dapur is of Luk 3 and some mention to be Luk 1. How and when can we tell if it is Luk 1 or 3. And why? Below are 2 examples of dapur Damur Murub I've seen. One with a straight body and luk at the tip, and the other has slightly curve body follow by the luk. Attached Images Last edited by Newsteel; 12th September 2008 at 05:50 AM.

12th September 2008, 06:22 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	One luk ? The curve is extreme in this blade . When does a sepokal type form become one luk ? Attached Images

13th September 2008, 09:15 AM	#4
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	3 loek hallo marcokeris you mean this type of three loek regarts semar Attached Images

12th September 2008, 07:09 AM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I know that Damar Murub is a 3 luks dapur on the top of the blade (the same of your pics).There are also two other similar three luks but they are in the middle of the blade or at the beginning of the blade... but i don't remember these dapur names.

14th September 2008, 03:18 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	The Surakarta Karaton Pakem does not list Luk Satu. You've got straight keris, then you go to three waves. There is no luk satu keris. In fact, its simply not possible. You count the waves of a keris by starting with the blade pointing up and the gandik to your left, the dip immediately above the gandik is counted as luk # 1. You move from side to side across the blade as you count and you must finish with an uneven number. There is no choice:- the keris is a symbol of the male, uneven numbers are male numbers, all keris must have an uneven number of luk. Yes, I know somebody out there has a keris where the tip of the blade veers off to the right, and they think they can count this as an even number of luk. Wrong. You need to add one to the count to make it uneven. The male is not associated with female numbers, and the keris is male.

14th September 2008, 05:04 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Hi Alan. I am in full agreement with your statements, but i also wonder how you count on a blade like Semar's in the post just above yours. I have always understood that the counting of luks precedes upward towards the tip. To count Semar's keris as luk 3 seems to require that we move downward from the first count. So is this seen as a lurus blade with an unusal bend?

14th September 2008, 10:36 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	G'day David. This brings us back to a previous discussion. If a keris does not comply with pakem it is not a keris:- it is a keris-like object--- or to be polite:- diluar pakem---outside the guidelines. Semar's keris is outside the guidelines, thus in the strictest sense, and most certainly for application of any of the protocol that is used in keris appraisal, this cannot be appraised as one would appraise a keris. The reason for any number of luk is locked into the symbolic and talismanic requirements that were called upon when the keris was made. If it were necessary to produce a keris with an even factor, this even factor was produced in a way other than by producing something that fell outside the guidelines that govern the composition of a keris. To me it would seem to indicate that the maker was probably only a smith , or perhaps a beginner, who was not yet sufficiently knowledgeable.

15th September 2008, 05:32 AM	#8
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Interesting to know that the Kraton Pakem does not list keris with Luk 1, as it should be Luk 3 onwards. This was also recognised by older books written. But I find the later books to be otherwise including example like one posted by Semar, called as dapur Luk 1. Is that dapur Sengkol?

15th September 2008, 09:34 AM	#9
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	in northern Malaysia term, Rick's so called sepokal is lok 1, though i would prefer calling it lurus (usually sepokal has to be curvy).

15th September 2008, 10:40 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	One is the correct numeric value for a straight keris, but that does not make it a keris with one wave. If "luk satu" is valid terminology in some areas, I suspect that what we might be seeing is a local corruption of a half understood idea.

15th September 2008, 12:01 PM	#11
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	back to the original question, I think hurubing dilah has to be called lok 3

15th September 2008, 02:03 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Urubing dilah is a three wave dhapur. Those who would name it as a straight dhapur are in disagreement with the pakem produced under the aegis of Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Harya Hadiwijaya, son of Ingkang Sinuhun Kanjeng Susuhunan Pakubuwana X of Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat.