Strange flamboyant blade rapier on ebay

[Valjhun]

That's strange... Victorian? I'm not sure, it seem older...

Ebay item number 220304234813

Can somebody post pics for future evidence?

Any thoughts about that nice but strange piece?

[fearn]

Let's see if a picture gets posted below. Anyway, the two features I focused on are a) that wacky blade--I agree with the seller, it's probably a processional piece, and b) the pommel looks like a pineapple. Since, as I recall, the English went nuts for hothouse pineapples around 18th-19th century, I'd guess that it's English. It might be earlier than Victorian, but that non-functional blade makes me think it's 19th Century.

F

[Valjhun]

Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...a variation of the flamberge-style blade. One of the questions might be, what procession would have used a flamberge pattern. I know next to nothing about that style blade, like was it used by any particular order? Infantry vs cavalry, etc. Also, could it be a fraternal sword? Again, not my area. Still, an interesting piece...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Yes, processional... but, what kind of processions?

Conga line ?

[fearn]

I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece.

F

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fearn

I'm with Rick on this one. Looking back, I'm not sure processional is quite the right word. Perhaps it's better to talk about it as a decorative piece than a functional piece.

F

That was my impression too. form not function. A nice vicky wall hanger. Very pretty, but 'flamboyant' to the point of eccentricity, and for the money you could get a real rapier.
I've often wondered if any of these 'flamboyant' or in this case I guess more 'serpentine' blades were actually owned by men who expected to use them in anger?
I'd be relieved if I was forced to fight a chap who then drew one of these unweildy things. You would truly have to be Cyrano to make one of these as effective as a straight blade.

[Jim McDougall]

I think you guys really have a bead on this one, and I'm in full accord!
This very attractive piece I agree seems to be more decorative and symbolic than actually combative, although discussions in the past have insisted that these flammard blades actually have more cutting surface and could have actually seen combat. I'm not sure I concur, but as for this one, it is designed in the swept hilt rapier fashion on 16th century, and clearly a neoclassic interpretation, with the rapier a thrusting weapon, not cutting.

The 'flammard', or flame blade (often mistakenly called 'flamberge' from the sword of the fictional knight of 8thc France Renaud de Montauban, with that term meaning flamboyant) seems to correspond considerably to the Biblical flaming sword guarding the gates of Paradise (Genesis 3:24) and "...turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life".
This reference is from "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" (A.Mackay,R.Clegg & H.Haywood, 1946, p.359).

The ironwork of the hilt, with pierced crosses very much those of Knights of Christ type as seen on early Portuguese sword hilt elements, seems of late 18th century, possibly earlier slightly. The pineapple pommel is extremely interesting, and not seen on period rapiers in any references I have seen, though it seems more like a smallsword element. The pineapple was a popular symbol of friendship, hospitality and quite possibly extended into brotherhood? In the 18th century,it was used considerably in French rococo and neoclassic material culture.

With these considerations, I am inclined toward a fraternal piece, most likely Freemason, and of 18th century, probably Continental. The Freemason reference cited also noted that until recent times, the Tylers sword (that held to guard the entrance to the lodge) was the 'flaming sword'.

I have seen other extremely unusual swords, one with a full skull and crossbones and broadsword blade (the skull and crossbones profoundly Masonic symbolism ) which was likely one of these extremely symbolic bearing weapons.

Personally I think these are really kind of exciting pieces, and awaken the mystery and romantic imagination!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Conga line ?

LOL!!!!JUDL!! Ya kill me Rick!!!!

[Rick]

The interesting thing about this blade is that it is actually bent back and forth (like a keris blade) during the forging process .
No stock removal here .

The blade really reminds me of the waking Naga form of Java* .
*see below .

It must have been very demanding work to make the waves even in size, keep it from twisting on the anvil, and to finally have it come out flat .

Kudos to the Smith .

[fearn]

Gee Rick,

Are you saying we have a keris-shaped object here? Perhaps it belongs in the Keris coffee shop

Or maybe it's just a case of keris envy.

Seriously, I agree with you on the work of the smith, which leads me to think that whoever commissioned it had some money to play with, and (potentially) a reason to do it. I can see Jim's point that perhaps it was supposed to be a flaming sword guarding some secret fraternity or other. However, Europe was crawling with secret fraternal organizations at the time, so I'm not sure how much help that is in figuring out its provenance. A big "FREEMASON SECRET WEAPON" stamp on the side would have been useful.

Another thing that strikes me as odd is that it appears to have an ambidextrous hilt (this is more obvious in the ebay posting. I'd expect to see a commissioned piece be right-handed (or, perhaps, left-handed). The symmetry of the piece is puzzling to me. See the pics below. Comments?

F

[Jim McDougall]

Rick and Fearn, I'm with you guys on this blade...pretty fantastic work!
I'm still convinced this is most likely a Freemason's symbolic sword,probably used by the Tyler who guards the door of the lodge. It seems I recall a number of instances over the years, where some very interesting old swords have found a place as one of these symbolic swords in lodges across the country. I remember one had one of the Spanish colonial blades we have discussed a number of times over the years with the motto "draw me not without reason, nor sheath me without honor'. In other cases, mostly old cavalry sabres or ornate dress swords served the purpose.

According to "The Doorway of Freemasonry" by William Harvey, Dundee, Scotland, 1921, the old Scottish term tile/tyle meant to cover,hide, keep secret, and the officer who guarded the door of the lodge was solemnly entrusted with this duty. He notes further, "..there was a time when the tylers sword was 'wavy' in shape, and he adds that it was made in allusion to the flaming sword placed at the east of the Garden of Eden". He emphasizes that the tylers sword and office mark the dividing line between the lodge and the world.

Another Freemason site, this one in the U.S. notes that the tylers sword should traditionally be with a 'wavy' blade, and illustrates one of the more common neoclassic fraternal type hilts with a less elaborate straight wavy blade, and describes the same Biblical association to the flaming sword.

I agree that 18th century Europe, in Great Britain and on the Continent, was wrought with occultism as described in discussions on talismanic blades, and secret societies of many forms, most prevalent being the Freemasons. Of these secret societies and fraternal groups, the Freemason's seem to have the most identifiable weapons in most cases, however the tylers sword seems to have been a privately adopted weapon, which clearly carried a certain degree of status in earlier times with this Society. Members were of course typically of both gentry and sometimes nobility being well to do, and it seems reasonable that an elaborate piece like this would be commissioned.

I think it would be fascinating to find other rather elaborate sword examples that were likely used by tylers in these lodges, such as the one I mentioned with dramatic skull and crossbones that looked much like an Indian pata.

I remain convinced as well that certain obscure symbolism is subtly imbued in the motif, decoration and style in a number of cases in swords used by military officers of these times.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Thanks Jim,

I didn't know about the tradition of the Tyler's sword, and also thanks to Google, I now see what you mean. This makes as much sense as anything, so I'll be happy to go with your ID.

F

[katana]

Hi,
interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier)

In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525).

A few thoughts....

Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them.

It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area.

I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also be easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade.

I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'.

Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair.
There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade

Regards David

[Rick]

Could it be that we are looking at an Indonesian inspired rapier and not a wallhanger ?

Look at the form of the guard. notice that it is swept upward and outward on the same side as the gangya of a keris is .
I did not see any examples in Stone with this style of guard .



I may have to join Speculators Anonymous after this one ......

[Jim McDougall]

David, absolutely outstanding points, and well taken! It does make absolute sense that this might have something to do with the Portuguese in India, where serpentine blades with nagan symbolism were quite present. I had been wondering about those cross piercings, which are distinctly of Portuguese fashion and seen on late 16th century swords (of the type of rapier which became copied in Africa's Congo , as seen in Burton).

This rapier has been really puzzling, and while the Masonic possibility presented a rather intriguing and mysterious potential, I still hoped to find more true weapon vintage with it. With your true forensically astute eye, you have found what appears to be 'the smoking element'!! in the hilt. That repair I had not noticed.

Your observations on the combat potential of this weapon are well stated and thought out, and do offer compelling consideration that I also had not thought of.

Rick, your also well placed note on the swept upward asymmetric side of the hilt is very reminiscent of the keris, and adds to the potential for this piece having East Indies provenance as we are observing.

Returning to the Masonic perspective, the only element of this sword that remains curiously non-East Indies or Portuguese in India, is the pineapple pommel, which seems a distinctly 18th century European affectation, as Fearn has noted. I am not aware of the pineapple used as decorative motif on weapons of India, Indonesia or Portugal for that matter, and perhaps evidence of that feature might lend more to better securing possible provenance of this sword.

The game remains afoot gentlemen!!!
Excellent detection and discussion

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
The plate held on by the screws/ bolts, pointed out by David, looks to me to have been added because the tang on the blade was probably too small or a different configuration to the shape already cut into the hilt. This would then mean of course that the blade and the hilt were not made for each other. The reason I mention this is because I once cut a slot in a knife guard I was making and made it somewhat oversized, the solution, cut a plate with the correct slot and attach to the guard, problem solved. Just a thought.
Regards,
Norman.

[Atlantia]

The Victorians really liked the more ornate styles and the better Vicky repros can be very elaborate. I had a cup-hilt with the finest blade you could imagine (well possibly thats an understatement) but it was long and slender with several dozen shaped piercings in a wide central fuller, fantastic quality, just late 19thC!
If anything, the blade on the rapier in question is a little 'rough'. I wondered originally if it was a colonial piece, but despite the obvious talent of the maker, the surface doesn't look (to me) like it was ever polished. I think it was always intended to look old.
And is it me or does the pommel look cast? Like its come off a decorative railing.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi,
interesting sword.....although this is likely a 'Victorian' copy...or as suggested has symbolic qualities, there is a possibility that this could be 'authentic' (as a type of Rapier)

In Stone's 'A Glossary of ....Arms and Armour....' there is an example of Rapier that has a wavy blade stated as French, late 16th C (page 525).

A few thoughts....

Rapier develpment was 'meteoric' during a relatively short period of time.... development and evolution and it's demise. New ideas and modification seem to come and go very quickly....perhaps the Serpentine blade was one of them.

It is known that the Rapier was taken by the Portugese to India, bearing in mind that there were established trade routes between India with SEA it is likely that serpentine blades such as the Kris would have been known within India and later, the Europeans that colonised the area.

I also think that the wavy bladed Rapier would have a better 'cut' in the thrust (as with the kris) and possibly with 'slashing' cuts as well. Parrying an opponent's blade might also easier and allow more control as the 'offensive' straight blade is partially trapped in the undulations of the blade.

I would imagine that if a wavy blade had the same 'reach' as a straight bladed' version it would be heavier. (ie if the wavy blade was 'pulled' straight it would be longer and therefore weigh more) Suggesting that if a serpentine blade was mounted ...the hilt/pommel would be heavier to balance the blade. It is a shame that we do not know the 'balance point' of this particular sword. If ceremonial, it is likely that a 'standard weighted' hilt would be fitted to the 'overweight' blade making it 'tip heavy'....making it totally unusable for a 'Rapier duel'.

Looking at the pictures ....there is a possibility that there is a later (?) repair.
There seems to be a metal plate that looks to be 'younger' than the rest of the hilt.....This plate is held by at least two screws....also noticeable are the gaps between hilt and blade

Regards David

Hi David,
Great observations mate!

The balance point is a great idea. It looks like its going to be just below what would normally be thought of as 'riight'.
I say this because the handle looks a little long and the pommel is rather large. This and the obviously heavy guard with all its 'extras' and the large knuckle bow probobly make this 'about' balanced. I would guess the balance point to be about 4inches down the blade. But the critial thing as you mention is weight. As you say there are many 'dead end' rapier designs, but often the heavier ones are longer. Even the serpentine/flamboyant bladed rapiers are still effective in their length. I just cant see that being the case with this one. Rapier fencing is speed, I'd worry that this one would just get you killed.
Are there any period documents about incorporating the flamboyant blade into rapier fencing?
I find myself thinking about a fairly close-in thrust and sliding the point of the blade onto the target while at the same time deflecting an incoming thrust by angling the guard end of the sword outward slightly so the incomming opponents sword tip goes past you. The flamboyant blade would cause a slowing and wobble to this common and critical move, possibly causing you to miss and your opponent to hit.
Which made me think would the sword be kept in a 'up down' position (blade profile upright) while performing the thrust?
But then the blade would flex side-to-side! LOL, I'm waffling now.



Regards
Gene

[katana]

Hi,
Jim .... thank you for your kind words.

Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ??

[Rick]

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?







Somebody throw a net over me, please !

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if this blade was possibly made by an Indonesian smith rather than European . I think I'm looking at a nice distal taper, and the curves evoke a really native approach .

Portugese steel meets Indonesian smith ?







Somebody throw a net over me, please !

You're just itching to etch it aren't you Rick? ;-)

[Rick]

Fall of Malacca to the Portuguese, 1511 ...

Staining ??

Nah, I suspect that if a Portuguese comissioned a sword from a local smith he would have given him superior European steel to work with; not that local crap what passes for metal .

[katana]

Originally Posted by katana

Are we sure that the pommel is a pineapple ??

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple... afterall the orientation of the growth of the leaves is wrong, pineapples have 'blunted' ends ...the pommel is 'pointed' at its extreme end. A 'fruit' interpretation of the more common 'acorn' ???

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple...

You know it does look like a raspberry! lol

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

How about the Mysore Raspberry ? OK unlikely .....but I feel more likely than a pineapple... afterall the orientation of the growth of the leaves is wrong, pineapples have 'blunted' ends ...the pommel is 'pointed' at its extreme end. A 'fruit' interpretation of the more common 'acorn' ???

Aw raspberries!!!
You're really good David!!! Clearly my botanical and culinary powers of observation are slipping !! Good grief, did I take my pill today!

I'm not sure about whether berry or not, but surely some kind of pod or budding plant.....I think we're more positive to the subcontinent and environs now.

Outstanding !!! Great observations you guys,


All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi All,

Since I am a botanist, I do know exactly what you mean about it not looking like a realistic pineapple (image 1). It's a figurative pineapple (image 2, a modern finial).

If you modeled a pommel on a pineapple as we see it in the store, that bunch of leaves on the top would gouge your arm every time you brushed it.

Anyway, I think Jim was right in that it was a Tyler's sword, and here's an example from the web (image 3).

If anything, the hilt on this rapier looks more like something from Mars (see image 4: John Carter's sword from Edgar Rice Burroughs), not something from Asia, at least in terms of curlicue details.

My 0.002 cents,

F

Since I swiped the image, here's a link for the artist who made that martian longsword.

[katana]

Hi Fearn ,
I have seen the image for the Tyler's sword, after 'googling' "tyler's sword" in Google images ....the majority though were straight bladed I think you'll agree though that the quality of the blade on this tyler's sword seems poorer quality than on the 'thread starting' sword. In fact it looks as if it once was straight bladed and then the waves ground out.

The sword could indeed be a Tyler's Sword ...... or a Victorian "wallhanger".... or perhaps something more interesting. I myself, am undecided .... but , I do not close my mind to the possibilities...any 'sensible deductions' that cannot be definately dis-proved are 'potentially' true.

Sorry Fearn, when looking at your example of the 'pineapple' finial .... all I see is ... artichoke

Kind Regards David

[fearn]

Hi Katana,

As for the pineapple, I don't disagree with you on an botanical basis. On a commercial/artistic basis...well, I just googled "pineapple finial" and took one of the first images.

I've attached an artichoke finial for comparison.

As you can see, most swordsmiths aren't botanists. A cross-hatched ovoid pommel isn't really definitive.

Unless we assume that whoever made this was a plant freak or a realistic artist, there are a bunch of other things it could be, such as a raspberry, a protea, a badly done strawberry, some types of conifer cone, and the like. It could also be a stylized hand grenade, too, if you want to go way afield.

I'd identified the pommel as an pineapple because I knew that was a common motif in Europe. If it's not a pineapple, then we need to come up with a reason why someone mounted a poorly sculpted artichoke (or whatever it is) on the butt of a sword with a non-functional blade.

F

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Saw this at Glasgow's Kelvingrove Museum today, tagged as mid 16th Century Italian, straight blade.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Please excuse the bad close-up, unsteady hand shooting through glass !!!