New Kilij

[ariel]

Just got it. It is very heavy, with silver /old leather scabbard and very bulbous rhino handle. The blade has minimal superficial pitting and narrow Yelman (truly sharp false edge), what is usually described as characteristic of old Kilijes. However, the fuller structure looks more Persian/Georgian/ Afghani, especially the three narrow fullers "stacked" in the middle. No inscription at all, no markings of any kind. It has a very old knot, that looks kind of Arabian. The crossguard is free and I cannot find any hole in it for the usual little nail.
Questions:
1. What is the origin of this Kilij?
2. Likely age?
3. Any locality for this particular kind of silverwork?
4. Any thoughts on the knot?
5. How to secure the crossguard and how to stabilize a (minimally) wobbly handle?
6. Any other comments, suggestions, ideas?

[Yannis]

Dear Ariel

If you ever want to sell it please think your friend Yannis

My opinion about this is:

The blade is second half of 19th century and so goes the rest of it.

Silver engravings of this artistic style was in use in Greece so it is possibly Greek. I asume who was the owner (not the person but the rank) but I have to check my books.

The knot is not what you think. It is a kind of belt (I dont know the english word). This kilij was hanged from the shoulder.

I wish I had it

[M.carter]

There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs.

Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

[ham]

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

[M.carter]

It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard.

That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all.

Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by ham

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

[tom hyle]

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

Well thats certainly interesting! Ive never handled a sword with a riveted hilt that was loose (except for crossguards). I get my pitch from an industrial area over here in kuwait. Its black, oily and very smelly I must say.

[Rick]

Mark , how did the re-mount of the tulwar blade work out ?
Nice and snug now ?

The grip scales on my karud are as tight as when they were placed there some 150-200 years ago .
They were applied with mastic and rivets .
I have seen some examples of loose grip scales but usually these are on knives/swords that depended solely on rivets to hold them on , many of the scales being wood .

[M.carter]

Well, it was a messy affair trying to get the resin inside the hilt, but there it is, on my school desk, drying, I shall touch it again tommorow, see how good it is.

[ariel]

Gentlemen, is there a synthetic material easily obtainable in legitimate stores that could be used to fix the crossguard? I shudder to imagine myself boiling an explosive mix of exotic and flammable ingredients in our kitchen. I will be kicked out of the house by She Who Must Be Obeyed if I even mention doing something like that ("....eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog...")
The Syrian/Egyptian origin is entirely feasible: I have a Syrian Shamshir with very similar fuller arrangement. I cleaned he blade after I got it (was quite dirty and even had a faint patches of active rust) and did emergency oiling. I'll try to clean it better and may even try to etch it a bit to look for damascus pattern.
As to the wobbly handle, the scales are just a little wobbly: the lower rivet is not very secure and, I guess, the horn got a little shrunken and deformed after so many years. If I can pour some glue-ish compound into the crossguard, it wll certainly solve the scales problem as well.

[ham]

Originally Posted by M.carter

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

Good idea. How strong are they? Do they come in black color?
Any more "permanent" fixative?

[ariel]

Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html

He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?

[tom hyle]

SFI? That link's to the Vikingsword forum? Pics are gone, and was there more text about the process? Seems to be some missing information in trying to establish a logical sequence to the posts; were the pictures that good, that textual conclusions came from them? Or was there an SFI link at one time or something? Didn't he use pitch as the adhesive for the scales/to level the area between the tang bands? I think he used some sort of epoxy to fill a void or warped hollow, but not as the actual adhesive; am I misremembering?
As to loose scales, I can only testify that they are common, and point out that anyone who hasn't seen them before, has seen some now. It is axiomatic in woodworking that the warpage of wood is an unstoppable force and will ultimately overcome any adhesive, when the two are opposed (one tries to avoid opposing them for this reason; a positive mechanical joint is often preferred, but even so will often sucumb.....). Thus, though the power of the adhesive (and particularly perhaps its elasticity in the case of pitch; but I've seen old pitch that was still holding, and other that had failed) may be of some influence, and the pins, if tight and rivetted will also restrain movement in varying degree (with their hardness, thickness, etc.), the main reason some old scales are going to be tight with an even, nonopen joint, tight rivets, uncracked, etc. is that either due to planning/knowledge, circumstances, sealing, or the nature of the material (most extreme example; stone, including metal), they have not tried very hard to warp. If they had, no adhesive is known to hold them (and I for one have seen numbers of scales that had come unadhered with warpage), and as to the pins, the warping wood sometimes tends to bend them (yes, that's right; if they are thin/soft) and/or crack around them when it warps much. Another common type of warpage, that often leaves a handle tight or tolerably tight, is (often wavy) warpage that makes a space between scale and tang. If the common rivetted joint between tang and pommel-plate is loose, or that of the tang bands, you'd be in worse trouble, of course.

[Yannis]

I am really sorry that I insist in my first opinion. The blade is second half of 19th century. The fullers are characteristic of this production line. The older kilij fullers are more wide and less deep.

[ham]

Yannis,

Certainly true in the case of Ottoman blades, this one is Persian however.
Incidentally, do you see many Qajar trade blades in Ottoman mounts in Greece? They seem to have been a great deal more popular among the Arab provinces than in the Balkans and Aegean.

Sincerely,

Ham

[M.carter]

Well, I can tell you that thread in which Artzi restored the Kilij hilt, that would too hard and very dangerous to do (somehow, he did it!). You will need (as I remember) epoxy putty (readily available, easy to use) and a welding machine (or someone who has one). If you want to re-tighten the grip scales, first you must cut the rivets and pull the entire hilt apart (2 grip scales, brass/silver strap, crossguard.), clean the tang. Weld the brass/ silver strap back on. Then stick the two slabs back onto the tang (be careful not to fill in the holes in the tang). Then add two new rivets. Then fix the crossguard with epoxy putty too.

I find epoxy putty as a replacement medium acceptable, one, it is much more harder and better than cutlers resin, two, it is much more easier to "obtain" and use.

[M.carter]

Clay is too brittle, and your hilt would start to loosen up once you swing the sword.

[Conogre]

Yannis, before I forget, I believe the type of suspension cord arrangement that you are referring to is called a "baldric".
That's very interesting information on the Syrian/Egyptian blades, with my first impulse being Ottoman with the stacked fullers being very similar to those found on knives and daggers from Surmene, in Turkey.
Reference the epoxy putty, it's readily available, of all places, in most pet shops that carry coral and marine fish and invertebrates, as it's a two part compound that is mixed up and used to secure live coral pieces to a larger piece of base rock to create artificial reefs ....it's actually safe enough that it is used with even very fragile live corals and yet will cure underwater, with seawater being one of the most corrosive environments known.
Another beautiful sword!
Mike

[tom hyle]

There are a lot of epoxies, some of them too expensive for me to have ever messed with. Most of the ones I've used can be a bit brittle for work on swords, but are indeed, not too bad. Two cautions about epoxy: one is the fumes, sometimes smellable and sometimes not, sometimes with a buzz or headache, sometimes not, are poisonous; ventilation is a good thing; I personally won't do Bondo for instance without a mask though; and B clean/degrease the surfaces real good first; strong alcohol works well and is relatively nontoxic; some roughening can help too, in contrast to some adhesives that work best on tightly matching smooth surfaces.
The tang band soldering is done with a soldering iron, either newfangled or oldfashioned; there can be a torch involved, but the level of heat is not comparable to direct iron to iron welding. Please never use an electric welder on a sword unless you want to dangerously ruin its temper (potentially creating nasty brittle areas; a soft area at best), or intend to reharden afterwards. Various types of soldering, even of brazing, can be done on tempered blades without altering the temper (unless it is very hard; harder than usual for weapons) by expert welders, and this is why it is a semitraditional way to repair blades and is fairly commonly seen as a repair for cracks and delaminations on old blades.

[Gt Obach]

heres a link to some knife makers testing and debating which is the best epoxy

enjoy!

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...highlight=glue


Greg

[tom hyle]

Thanks!

[ariel]

Thanks.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Conogre

Yannis, before I forget, I believe the type of suspension cord arrangement that you are referring to is called a "baldric".

Conogre. Thank you for the term. I hope I will not forget it. You can see the way they wear this baldric in a famous greek painting below.

Also you can see a scabbard like this from a greek collection. The blade is ottoman.

Finally, once again I say that Ariel's blade is not Persian but Ottoman. I have one almost the same, with same guard and almost same hilt, but more plain scabbard. Unfortunatly I cannot post picture now.

I have never seen a proven Persian kilij of this type (sort and wide blade).

[ariel]

I completely agree with Yannis: this is an Ottoman one. The bulbous "pistol" handle and the slit in the scabbard are unmistakeable.
However, Ottoman doesn't mean Turkish: the Empire included the entire Middle East, Egypt (albeit nominally), the Balkans etc. Thus, while the overall style is unquestionably "Ottoman", this sword could have come from rather unexpected places. That is where the question of decorations of the scabbard becomes important.
The blade could have been locally-made or imported from Iran (despite being official enemies, the two empires traded with each other quite extensively, including wepons). Thus, it may be of inferior "localizing" quality than the decorations that were made by a master using peculiarly-national patterns.

[Andrew]

I don't think Ham is disputing that this sword is of Ottoman manufacture. His distinction is that the blade, itself, is a Persian trade blade in Ottoman mounts.

[ariel]

No problem with it: I fully agree.
Any ideas about decorative elements? As per Yannis, they may be Greek .Any other opinions?