Whistlinbill's Collection #6: Khukuri

[Lee]

And this thread shall contain khukuri...

(I especially like #4)

[Battara]

Love the silver hilts on 2 of these kuks. Surprised that the 2 silver hilted kuks don't have kothimora scabbards.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Battara

Love the silver hilts on 2 of these kuks. Surprised that the 2 silver hilted kuks don't have kothimora scabbards.

Salaams Battara ~ I had no idea what a kothimora scabbard was until I went after this one ... I found a good reference at http://www.thekhukurihouse.com/catalog/product.php?id=313234f87
which essentially says the scabbard is silver / silvered and special from the viewpoint of honour.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[DhaDha]

Wow. 4 is really nice. Love the decoration on the blade.

[Lee]

a truly mixed lot...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Bill~ did you ever think to open a Museum?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[VANDOO]

I DON'T COLLECT OR HAVE MUCH KNOWLEGE OF THESE MOSTLY JUST TALES OF THE GURKA'S FIGHTING ABLILTYS VERY GOOD FOLKS TO HAVE WATCHING OUT FOR YOU.
#4 IS A BEAUTY AND MY FAVORITE. I AM SURE THOSE MEMBERS WHO COLLECT IN THIS FIELD WOULD LOVE TO ADD SOME OF THESE TO THEIR COLLECTIONS. NO DOUBT KEYBOARDS SOMEWHERE ARE BEING RUINED AS THEY DROOL ON THEM.
HOPEFULLY THESE MEMBERS WILL SEE THIS THREAD AND ENLIGHTEN US AS TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

[Atlantia]

Nice selection Bill. I like the two 'Mk3' private purchase. I've got a similar one myself.
The two Steel hilted ones are really nice too.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I DON'T COLLECT OR HAVE MUCH KNOWLEGE OF THESE MOSTLY JUST TALES OF THE GURKA'S FIGHTING ABLILTYS VERY GOOD FOLKS TO HAVE WATCHING OUT FOR YOU.
#4 IS A BEAUTY AND MY FAVORITE. I AM SURE THOSE MEMBERS WHO COLLECT IN THIS FIELD WOULD LOVE TO ADD SOME OF THESE TO THEIR COLLECTIONS. NO DOUBT KEYBOARDS SOMEWHERE ARE BEING RUINED AS THEY DROOL ON THEM.
HOPEFULLY THESE MEMBERS WILL SEE THIS THREAD AND ENLIGHTEN US AS TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

I'll have a bash!

1 & 2 are both Indian made Kukris following the Mark 3 general form but with Ivory hilts, made for private purchase. They date to the war or just after and there are various slight varitions of the hilt slabs using Ivory and horn.
I attach a pic (borrowed from Berkley).

There's a whole thread showing a lot of variations over at www.ikrhs.com
If memory serves, I think Jonathan said these were made by a firm in Calcutta.

3 & 4 I'd date both to the early part of the last century. 1910-30. #3 looks like it might be a silver hilt, or silvered steel and the silvering is still in good condition. #4 seems to be a cut steel hilt, possibly once silvered.
Both very good pieces, possibly presentation pieces to officers.

#9 a good standard Nepali non military type, a 'villager'. I'm thinking that the scabbard with frog and the Karda and Chakmak have been married to it and are not original to it. (if anything, they look better quality).

#10/#11/#12 getting later touristy types. #10 follows the current military shape with non military decoration on the blade.

Have a look at Jonathans 'bible' thread for some clarification:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8490

[DhaDha]

Thanks for sharing your collection. Love to see 5-8 as well.

[whistlinbill]

Gentlemen, thank you so much for your help and expertise! I did pick up a fairish amount of kukris. Since I had a company that imported them, and I was interested, I tried not to let anything interesting get away. And my partner in the game was Hank Reinhardt, who was a kukri fanatic (Hank designed a kukri that Ethan Becker is talking about resurrecting). I very much appreciate your comments--your breadth of knowledge is spectacular!
Thanks,
Bill

[Lee]

Sorry, DhaDha; I've been stepping through by file name and not watching the labels. Here are the missing:

[DhaDha]

There they are! Thanks again...

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by whistlinbill

Gentlemen, thank you so much for your help and expertise! I did pick up a fairish amount of kukris. Since I had a company that imported them, and I was interested, I tried not to let anything interesting get away. And my partner in the game was Hank Reinhardt, who was a kukri fanatic (Hank designed a kukri that Ethan Becker is talking about resurrecting). I very much appreciate your comments--your breadth of knowledge is spectacular!
Thanks,
Bill

Happy to help Bill, my knowledge is still rather limited and to be honest I'm a recent convert to the Kukri.
They were so plentiful when I was a kid and growing up, I tended to view them as little more than a fancy billhook.
I think I linked you to an out of date version of Jonathans seminal Military Kukri thread.
This one seems to have been updated more recently.

[sirupate]

Kukri numbers one and two, very nice civilian Mk3 variants, manufacture would be unknown, definitely made in India.
Kukri number three, looks like a high quality civilian kukri
Kukri number four, outstanding dui chira kukri, anywhere from late 19th century to very early 20th century.

Kukri number 9 is I would say Indian made around the WW2 era, almost sirupate in style
Kukri number 10, British Service issue, they been issued with that style of decoration from time to time, the sword of Shiva description is actually incorrect, it is just a form of decoration.
Kukri number 11 is a Budhune style kukri, potentially a tourist version
Kukri number 12 is a high quality tourist piece

Kukri number 5 is one of the IA styles of kukri issued in WW2 to Gurkhas, so whether this is one of those that has been chromed for keep sake (as many were, indeed Lt. Col. Cross had all his chromed), or whether it is a later export piece is hard to tell.
Kukri numbers 6 & 7 tourist kukri
Kukri number 8 Indian made kukri, probably WW2 era.

I hope that is of some help, Cheers Simon

[whistlinbill]

Simon, thank you! I really appreciate your expertise in identification!
Bill

[sirupate]

A pleasure Bill

[Lee]

Did I mention there were more? ... we are less than halfway ...

[sirupate]

kukri number 13, probably Nepalese Circa WW2
kukri number 14, Indian, Circa WW2
kukri number 15, as per no.13
kukri number 16, Indian, possibly military post WW2

[Atlantia]

Hi Bill,

#14 and #16 are also Indian made, #14 from around WW2 #16 possibly a little after. #16 seems to have something stamped on the blade. It's too small to read in the picture, but I seem to remember seeing similar types stamped 'Tempered Steel, Made in India' I'll see if I can find it.
From the similarities, it seems that these Indian firms were making various sizes and style variations of their main type.
Your #14 small Kuk has similarities with and is of the size of those often associated with private purchase by allied air crews in WW2 for use as survival knives etc.

There's a good thread over at www.IKRHS.com about the little Kukri sometimes carried by Air crew:
Private purchase Air crew Kukri

[Atlantia]

Getting back to #16, here is a small one with a 'similar' stamp, which reads: "Tempered Steel Made In India"

[Atlantia]

As a further note on #14, here is my example which although of the same date and origin, has a slightly more 'non traditional' design. I'll include some stats for you to compare with yours, it has no makers markings:

Size: small 27cm overall length.
Integral bolsters.
No Kaudi/Cho
deliberately off-set asmetric hilt to fit perfectly and comfortably a right handed user.
Slight concave grinding of blade with flat ground edge.
Razor sharp.
Black buffalo horn hilt. Note notch in bolster to stop hilt turning.
Brass buttcap.
Weight 211.7g
Military style scabbard with frog. Non Karda/chakmak type.

[Atlantia]

As you'll have noticed, your Kukri #16 shares similarites with the two small Kukri that I have shown. Whereas your Kukri #14 seems more akin to you Kukri #1 & #2.

The full width flat tangs are usually distinctive features of some military types and these Indian Kukri.
I also have one of the #1/#2 types but you'll notice that it's the 'other way round' with buffalo horn hilt slabs and ivory rivet covers. The amount of variations produced is dizzying frankly. You can see several in the period picture I posted at the beginning of this thread and there are many shown in the thread I indicated over at IKRHS.

[sirupate]

Hello Atlantia,

The full width flat tangs are usually distinctive features of some military types

Indeed so, the Mk2, Mk3 and the post war Wilkinson Sword variation of the Mk3, which according to Robert Wilkinson-Latham is a Mk4.

Be interesting to see what other kukri Bill has lined up for us, by the way we should get together some time, as we in the same part of the World!

Cheers Simon

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by sirupate

we should get together some time, as we in the same part of the World!

Hi Simon,

I can't remember us really talking until our recent 'exchange of views' and to be completely frank, that didn't exactly leave me thinking we should go on a 'date'
Now I'm not saying never, but you're going to have to do a lot more 'flirting' first

Regards
Gene

[whistlinbill]

Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way!
Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you
show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra
Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during
World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea.
Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from,
best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas
didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper
religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made
kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the
Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product.
Thanks,
Bill

[sirupate]

Fabulous bit of information Bill

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by whistlinbill

Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way!
Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you
show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra
Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during
World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea.
Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from,
best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas
didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper
religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made
kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the
Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product.
Thanks,
Bill

Hi Bill,
You're too kind, we're all just students.
Seems to me from your amazing collection and great first hand accounts that you have a lot to contribute.
I look forward to reading more from you and seeing more of your collection.

Best
Gene

[sirupate]

Gentlemen, thank you! You're giving me quite an education in kukris--it's great to have scholars like you leading the way! Gene, FWIW, somewhere in this lot there is a kukri made like the one you show, with no trident cutout. I got it from Windlass Steelcrafts in Dehra Dun, about 25 years ago. What Sudhir Windlass told me was that during World War II, the "trident" marking was left off, for ease in production. The Gurtkha troops didn't like that--they said the knife was not as effective without it, etc., etc. So the (then British) Government dropped that idea. Also, there was an attempt to make kukris in Sheffield. I had a couple from, best I recall, Joseph Rodgers. The British factory guys said the Gurkhas didn't want to use them because they hadn't been made with the proper religious rituals. When I asked Sudhir Windlass's dad about it (he had made kukris for the (British) Indian Army since 1943), he said the problem with the Sheffield made knives was the cost--the Sheffield knives cost much more than Indian or Nepali product. Thanks, Bill

Some thoughts I have had on the above quote;
I certainly know that some kukri were produced without the Gorakhnath kaudi, but were they issued to the Gurkhas?
Regarding Windlass I rather thought they were producing the Mk3, and the spec drawings for the Mk3 clearly show the kaudi;

One also wonders how many if any Mk3 were issued to the Gurkhas? as we know the 8th Gurkhas ended up making there own in WW2;
Huxford; “As Government kukri were unobtainable, the Centre (Regimental Centre at Quetta) developed its own kukri industry. A large number of kukri manufacturers and other skilled artisans were imported, and within a few months it was possible to equip all drafts with weapons of the finest design and make. Considering that only available material was scrap, such as springs from derelict motor cars and odds and ends of old metal parts, and that the workshops were covered huts with no facilities for manufacturer, these craftsmen put up a fine effort which astonished visitors.”
I also don't think religious rituals would have had anything to do with it, I have never seen a kami do any religious rituals before making a kukri, no matter whether the kami was Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc
Also regarding the kukri made in Sheffield, I wonder if he is not referring to the post War Wilkinson Sword kukri, which as you can see from the Mk3 specs, is almost identical in profile.

[whistlinbill]

Well, the "religious rituals" comment was from Ben Lowe, who was head of
pocket knife production for Joseph Rodgers in 1971, when I spent a fairish amount in Sheffield. He had worked at Joseph Rodgers during World War II.
I feel that Ben didn't know much about Hindu religious rituals (he was an old-time Yorkshireman, through and through) but that was likely the excuse that the Rodgers management had used for not getting the contract.

The drawing you show is, I believe, the same one we sent out with the kukris
we bought off Windlass; there was also a smaller kukri, that had a horn handle
and, they said was worn mostly by officers and on guard duty (in the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army) That kukri is considerably lighter than the
one in this drawing.) The drawing is an exact copy of the original drawing, which was lent to us by Windlass. We also included a copy of the Indian
Govt. specs that Windlass had lent us.

And, incidentally, the steel used in the Mk 3 is a British spec--and it's the same steel used for railroad rails. Sudhir Windlass said that (a number of years ago) for kukri steel, they would buy railroad rails and send them to be rolled out in a rolling mill down in the Punjab.

Regarding the styles made during World War II, by the time I had gotten
to Dehra Dun, Mr. Windlass had cleaned out the offices of all the old paperwork. I would feel sure that whatever he made at that time would
be the regular military spec. He was in business as a military contractor.
As an aside, Mr. Windlass told me that he had been to Dharan many times, but never to Kathmandu, which would cause me to believe that he was delivering kukris to the Gurkhas in Dharan. I wish I'd have asked him.

The Mk 3 is issue to the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army. We bought them from Windlass, and they were a military contract overrun. Sometimes
I think the overrun was a little bigger than the contract! We always thought
the Mk 3's we got from Windlass were "rough", but Windlass said the Indian
Govt. wanted to pay less and wanted less finish. The troops were expected
to clean 'em up.

The Dushera kukri we had was also a military one; it was used for the
Dushera festival, when the strongest guy in the regiment has to cut the
head off a buffalo with one stroke. If it doesn't work, the regiment will
have bad luck for a year (and he'll probably have KP for the same period!)

Windlass made very few of these of these extra large kukris--after all, how many Gurkha regiments would the Indian Army have? And how many of these special kukris would they use? This was an "accommodation order" for the regiments; Sudhir Windlass was tickled that we would order a few dozen now and then--he said we were buying more than the Indian Government did!
Thanks,
Bill