![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Hi guys, I know I am in the right spot to ask for more information about what I have here. Talking to other forumites via email has prompted me to bring this little fella out of the display cabinets, I beleive it to be a Javanese Kris from about 1860. I welcome everyones knowledgable input into learning more about it and it's history.
thanks in advance Gavin |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]()
This lovely fittings looks Malay, to me.
![]() The blade had been repaired. The 'belalai gajah' (or kembang kacang, the curled area at the base of the blade) seems like an add-on work, the weld lines does not flow towards the curl. The flow of the 'luks' (waves), seems 'disturbed'. Number of luks...hmmm... 10 or 11 (?). ![]() ![]() Last edited by Alam Shah; 11th January 2008 at 10:53 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
|
![]()
I am not convinced that the belalai gajah is an add-on, but there does seem to be something strange going on there. Possibly a good traditional washing might reveal more.
![]() Certainly not Javanese as Shahrial has said. Malay, possibly Sulawesi??? I am curious why you suspect about 1860 as a possible date. It is certainly possible, but it is a bit more exacting than i think most would venture. Do you have some sort of provenance that has lead you to this date? BTW, i like the dress, especially the brass pendokok.. Is the toe of the sheath made of horn? ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]() Quote:
![]() Quote:
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,200
|
![]()
I was also thinking Bugis, especially in the wranga (top part of thet scabbard) , the hilt, and the selut (the cup that holds the hilt).
BTW - the hilt is on backwards |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Everyones help thus far has been fabulous, thank you. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() I think you can be fairly certain that this keris isn't 14th century. The 1860 date would be much closer. I only wondered why such a specific dat as opposed to saying, say, 19th century. ![]() Shahrial, thanks for being more specific. I think i see what you are seeing now, but a washing would probably clear it up. The new picture though, showing the reverse side, doesn't look the disturbed. ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,856
|
![]()
In counting the waves in a blade you start on the first wave above the gandik and criss-cross the blade, finishing on the same side that you started. The total must be uneven. Even in the exceptionally rare style of keris where the point turns to the wadidang, it is best to add a nominal luk to give the required uneven number. A keris is male. Even numbers are female. This blade has 11 waves, and the tenth wave is not difficult to see.
I do not think that the kembang kacang has been replaced or repaired. In the close-up the metal grain is quite distinct, but there does seem to be some sort of a score across the base of the kembang kacang on one side. I have had in my possession a number of keris of this generic Bugis style that had the hilt orientated as is the hilt on this keris. In all cases they had been fixed that way in the culture from which they came, as they had been fixed with damar, and were in original condition. I have also seen a photo of somebody wearing a keris of this style with the hilt on "back to front". I have no idea why they were sometimes fixed in this way, but they were. Exact area of origin? I have no idea. Generically it is Bugis, but Bugis from where? Don't know. I will observe that it does not display the typical Bugis blade cross section, so it unlikely to be Sulawesi. Peninsula? North Coast Sumatra? Anybody's guess is as good as mine. Age? Looks second half 19th century to me, but that is just opinion, and cannot be backed up with analysis a la tangguh, as we can do with Jawa blades. All in all, I reckon its a pretty decent old piece. If the hilt is loosely fixed , ie, held by tension only, twist it around. If it is not, leave it as it is. There are precedents. Here is an example. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]() Quote:
With regards to the hilt being turned the correct way...it is rock solid so it will have to stay as is. In further research, do you think the brass pendokok would be a help in finding it's origins or in your opinion are there better reference points within this Kris to follow up? You have all given me much food for thought and points of reference for further research, thank you. Just as an interest and I know this subject is quite speculative, but what monetary value would you put on this piece, I only ask as it has a twin brother that I spoke of above, sitting in a collection and if I was to make an offer what would be considered fair. best regards Gavin |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,856
|
![]()
Gavin old mate, we don't don't talk about the filthy lucre in this place.
No mention of money, valuations. commercial opinions, or even the barest hint of anything that might smell of commerce. The hilt may be firmly fixed, but it would be easy to remove if necessary, however, since it is firm it is likely that way because of damar, rather than araldite---at least I'd like to think so-- my remarks were a suggestion that it be left like that. Gavin, unless we know that a keris was collected in a certain place, and that all components are stylisticly correct for that place, it is very often quite difficult to say that keris from areas outside the major classifications originated in such and such a place. I have had many keris with excellent provenance dating back in some cases more than 100 years, referred to me for identification. Often these keris will be a mix of parts from various places, periods and styles. Once you move away from a kraton influenced area it seems that people have always grabbed whatever they could to mount their keris. I recently obtained a really beautiful keris in a broken Solo gayaman, the blade was South Sumatra gonjo iras, the hilt was textbook Bugis, the pendongkok was textbook Palembang. It was collected in Sumatra in approximately 1880. To me, this keris looks Peninsula because of the blade cross section, standard of workmanship, and material; the wrongko looks like a coastal area of maybe North Sumatra, but really, I know diddley squat about these sort of keris. If somebody else says different and can give cogent reasons I'll believe them. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() Quote:
![]() |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Thank you for the heads up Alan, I probably should have read the sticky threads a bit more closely, in particular #5 in the code of conduct, I do apologise fellow forumites, I will keep this type of question to myself.
Thanks again guys for norrowing all my speculation down to a more accurate place of origin, all input has been fantastic thus far and is interesting to hear about Kris being "put togethers" as far back as the late 1800's. Do you think this is the norm that influences tended to be a mixture of parts or just a result of amateur collection in the days of old? thanks again Gav |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,856
|
![]()
The example I quoted was obtained in Sumatra by a seaman who worked on trading ships and was supposedly taken from a Sumatran gentleman in a fight. That could be family legend, but this information was given to me in an honest fashion and situation.
I've seen other stuff too that was a mix. Recently had a piece obtained as a gift in the the 1930's from a village chief in Sumatra referred to me. From memory that was Bugis/Jawa/ Palembang + some unidentifiable part ---forget the precise details, but it was a total mix. Yeah, western collectors mix things too, as do dealers, but it has been happening in local areas for years also. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
|
![]()
That's a funky looking sheath on that example you posted Alan. Beautiful wood.
![]() I certainly won't argue that occasionally you will find a bugis keris from an indigenous source with this type of hilt orientation...but i just can't imagine what kind of proper grip the owner could have when using his keris as a weapon. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]() Quote:
As for hilt orientation, I've seen pieces fixed solid to that orientation, (an example would be one of Paul de Souza's piece). David, I can't imagine as well. ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,856
|
![]()
Yeah, its quite pretty, and similar to Sharial's example. I do have others with this back to front handle, but I knew where this one was and could grab it immediately without having to look for it. I've wondered about the weapon function myself, and have thought that maybe it is turned back to front like this for some social reason, possibly indicating that the owner does not use it as a weapon for some reason or other.
Incidentally, the blade is also similar. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Hi guys, I have attached a photo of my oversized hands holding this blade and it seems very natural and where my forefinger is adds a lot of support, I thought I'd just include it for reference.
thanks again Gav |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,856
|
![]()
Very similar Shahrial, and I myself am most interested in this keris. I have been looking after it for about 40 something years now, I brought back from total destruction --- the burl wrongko was in pieces, the blade was bent and in very poor condition. This keris is a very good friend of mine.
I did not mean "social functions", I meant for a reason associated with society--- ie, a social reason. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
|
![]()
Hi,
I think this keris is a Straits Bugis keris, and most likely from the Sumatran side. The tapering batang and the style of the buntut tekak lipas ("cockroach throat") is not typical of peninsula malaysia; it is not so rounded, and the 'v' part bordering the batang is too far apart. The other hint is the hilt. Peninsula hulu kerdas usually does not curve that much downwards. The sampir is probably congruent with the Riau-Lingga style, though many people would confuse it with the very similar Terengganu style. The Riau-Lingga sampir style has a 'fuller body' and usually a more curving top line. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 368
|
![]()
Hi,
Just guessing. My bet is that this is a malay keris that comes from northern peninsula, posibbly Kedah. Quite a number of keris coming out from Kedah has this kind of fittings. However, the blade is normally of the jalak jantan/betina type which this one is not. The hilt in my opinion does not belong to the sheath. It seems that it is of a later work. This type of sheath usually come with a jawa demam hilt. However the combination is still valid, if we want to accept that the fittings are Sumatran. It is also possible that this is a North Peninsula (not east coast) blade, but its just a guess. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
|
![]()
Hi Rasdan,
Why do you think that the hilt is a later work? I think both the hilt and sheath are contemporaries to each other. The blade of this keris could be found in either side of the Straits. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 368
|
![]()
Hi Blu,
Yes, the combination is still valid. I think that its later because its from a different wood from the sampir. As far as i can see from the pics it looks much softer the work is almost probably from a different person. What i observe is that, later hilt usually uses softer wood. The blade quality and form looks quite different from the east cost one. But again, this is just a guessing game. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,200
|
![]()
This is the way the hilt should be (or at least perpendicular to the blade still with the the shorter part toward the thumb and forefinger). David is right on the money - this is the way to use it to fight and be functional.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 401
|
![]()
Very unique gripping technique AlamShah
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Thanks All.
Looking at the black and white image of the kris being held, I can imagine this being quite a positive grip, looking at the colour image, although you tell me it is correct and I have no knowledge otherwise, I could see in the heat of fighting with sweat and blood being present, the grip on the handle does not look to convincing enough to be rigid, especially if resisitance like bone was met square one. I will however source a local Kris with the handle on the correct way and try it for myself. Thanks for everyones input on the subject of this Kris and other questions. regards Gavin |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|