A Unique Curved Patissa

CharlesS · 3rd June 2010, 09:42 PM

This is one of the most unique Indian patissas I have seen. The blade is single edged and just slightly curved, being more noticable on the spine than the edge. The huge hilt is decorated in silver koftgari and the forte is decorated with a variety of Indian gods and goddesses in silver as well. The blade is good Indian crystaline damascus wootz with a lap weld where two practically identical wootz ingots were welded together; this likely was originally polished to be virtually invisible. The thin fuller is decorated with gold floral koftgari. There is an even thinner fuller above it, also decorated in gold koftgari, almost all of which is long gone. The scabbard is new.

Battara · 4th June 2010, 08:12 AM

What nice work. Quite unique.

dralin23 · 6th June 2010, 02:00 PM

hi charles,
an very intresting and beautifull sword.
i found an similar one at an older auction by hermann historica . it is the 57. auction from the 23 apr. 2009 lot nr 2952. there was also such an patissa sword offered. the fullers are there also decorated with koftgari work and i think at the pictures i see also an very light curvature in the fullers from these sword.
best wishes send you stefan
Hermann Historica

Hermann Historica

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 04:29 AM

interesting piece..might be kirach..not pattisa..might be bidri work

CharlesS · 9th June 2010, 03:03 PM

Jim,

Why do you say "kirach" here? I don't see it, at least not one along traditional lines.

Just curious.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Jim,

Why do you say "kirach" here? I don't see it, at least not one along traditional lines.

Just curious.

Quid pro quo, I was wondering what made you think it was a patissa

In the nebulous world of sword nomenclature and terminology, especially in India, the 'pattisa' ranks in the top ten mysterious contenders.

While Rawson completely overlooks the term, and puts all of these with 'khandas', Pant clarifies (?) by noting these are from South India and double edge, with the flared 'spatulate' tip. Typically these are in the Hindu baskethilt type mounts with the long seatings central on the blade nearly to mid point. The broadsword 'pattisa' is extremely flexible blade, and with the spatulate tip, is probably in some degree associated with the sword techniques favored by Mahrattas, slashing cuts. This is much the same as seen in Omani swordplay, with the kattara broadswords.
Many of these are from Malabar, the western coastal Indian regions with considerable Arab colonization and trade.

This example seems to be 19th century, and with the silverwork of the Bidri type (from Kerala regions originally but dispersed into Rajasthan, this may be Deccani).

The blade tip on this single edged sword, in which the curve is ever so slight, has what may best be described as a 'classical' type point, reflecting varied much earlier swords that are single edged, some of them even with a diamond 'lozenge' type point (Ajanta). Some of the spear tip angular points are termed 'shilagra' in Sanskrit.
The term 'kirach' is typically used for the straight blade tulwar, whose single edged blade is noted often as 'almost' straight.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss, nice sword!!!

CharlesS · 9th June 2010, 08:35 PM

Jim,

I am defining the sword exclusivley by its "spatula" tip, but when you include the other identifying factors I do think there can be a "type" overlap.

I generally think of a kirach as having a long straight(or almost straight) edge, with a down turned tip (like some Indonesian parang and klewang types), with the spine being unsharpened or at least having no more than a false edge.

If ever a sword was a candidate for identification overlap, I think this one is.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Jim,

I am defining the sword exclusivley by its "spatula" tip, but when you include the other identifying factors I do think there can be a "type" overlap.

I generally think of a kirach as having a long straight(or almost straight) edge, with a down turned tip (like some Indonesian parang and klewang types), with the spine being unsharpened or at least having no more than a false edge.

If ever a sword was a candidate for identification overlap, I think this one is.

Good point Charles (no pun intended

! As we know, India is a hotbed of weapons anomalies, the terminology notwithstanding. I think in most cases with these kinds of weapons we have to rely on comparitive description rather than classification by term. I dont think there are any reliable definitions for kirach or pattisa specifically, and we could probably go on forever on the maddening dilemma on weapons terminology from countless situations.

Rick · 9th June 2010, 10:45 PM

Now you guys are making me wonder what that downward curved, fully sharpened long back edged basket hilted sword that I have with the thickened point is !?

I had to go back and look at the thread .

That is some variation in form between the two.

CharlesS · 10th June 2010, 01:36 AM

Let's have some pics, Rick!

Gavin Nugent · 10th June 2010, 03:08 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=hindu

I was only looking at this when reviewing other matters two days ago. If it needs a new home Rick, it has one next to my Patissa.

Nice interesting piece Charles, very eloborate detailing..

Gav

RSWORD · 10th June 2010, 04:21 AM

This is what I would refer to as a "classic" kirach. Two interesting features of the sword are what give it that classification. The first is that the cutting edge is on the opposite side of where you would think it traditionally sits. In other words, the spine is where the cutting edge is and the cutting edge is where the spine traditionally is located. The other thing is the tip is reversed to that the sharp edge is at the end of the spine and not a continuation of the cutting edge. As Charlie was saying, like a klewang. Since I had it out I couldn't resist taking a good shot of the wootz pattern in the blade!

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2010, 07:26 PM

Rick, thank you so much for that clarification, and the great photos of this excellent example. I had not understood, relying on the vague references at hand, that the blade was quite contrary to regular sabre blades. In this case, backwards.
With illustrations of 'kirach' I had seen, without the kind of explanation you have offered, it simply appeared that the nominally straight blade was the criteria.
With the blade in this configuration, this type of Indian sabre becomes one of the forward angle type in use.
I'll adjust my notes

All the best,
Jim

3rd June 2010, 09:42 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A Unique Curved Patissa This is one of the most unique Indian patissas I have seen. The blade is single edged and just slightly curved, being more noticable on the spine than the edge. The huge hilt is decorated in silver koftgari and the forte is decorated with a variety of Indian gods and goddesses in silver as well. The blade is good Indian crystaline damascus wootz with a lap weld where two practically identical wootz ingots were welded together; this likely was originally polished to be virtually invisible. The thin fuller is decorated with gold floral koftgari. There is an even thinner fuller above it, also decorated in gold koftgari, almost all of which is long gone. The scabbard is new. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 3rd June 2010 at 10:17 PM.

10th June 2010, 03:08 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Linky http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=hindu I was only looking at this when reviewing other matters two days ago. If it needs a new home Rick, it has one next to my Patissa. Nice interesting piece Charles, very eloborate detailing.. Gav

10th June 2010, 04:21 AM	#12
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	This is what I would refer to as a "classic" kirach. Two interesting features of the sword are what give it that classification. The first is that the cutting edge is on the opposite side of where you would think it traditionally sits. In other words, the spine is where the cutting edge is and the cutting edge is where the spine traditionally is located. The other thing is the tip is reversed to that the sharp edge is at the end of the spine and not a continuation of the cutting edge. As Charlie was saying, like a klewang. Since I had it out I couldn't resist taking a good shot of the wootz pattern in the blade! Attached Images

4th June 2010, 08:12 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	What nice work. Quite unique.

9th June 2010, 04:29 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	interesting piece..might be kirach..not pattisa..might be bidri work

9th June 2010, 03:03 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Jim, Why do you say "kirach" here? I don't see it, at least not one along traditional lines. Just curious.

9th June 2010, 08:35 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Jim, I am defining the sword exclusivley by its "spatula" tip, but when you include the other identifying factors I do think there can be a "type" overlap. I generally think of a kirach as having a long straight(or almost straight) edge, with a down turned tip (like some Indonesian parang and klewang types), with the spine being unsharpened or at least having no more than a false edge. If ever a sword was a candidate for identification overlap, I think this one is.

9th June 2010, 10:45 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Now you guys are making me wonder what that downward curved, fully sharpened long back edged basket hilted sword that I have with the thickened point is !? I had to go back and look at the thread . That is some variation in form between the two.

10th June 2010, 01:36 AM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Let's have some pics, Rick!

10th June 2010, 07:26 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Rick, thank you so much for that clarification, and the great photos of this excellent example. I had not understood, relying on the vague references at hand, that the blade was quite contrary to regular sabre blades. In this case, backwards. With illustrations of 'kirach' I had seen, without the kind of explanation you have offered, it simply appeared that the nominally straight blade was the criteria. With the blade in this configuration, this type of Indian sabre becomes one of the forward angle type in use. I'll adjust my notes All the best, Jim