A group of 3 swords won on eBay

katana · 11th November 2006, 11:12 PM

Hi Everyone,
Just acquired 3 swords.....well 2 swords and a SEA Tourist sword. I bid for the Kaskara, but the Cavalry Sword was a bonus, I know the Wilkinson sword was manufactured between 1849 (or 1870's ?) and 1887. According to this article.

' the blade is etched with Queen Victoria's Royal cypher, which places the date of manufacture between the 1837-1901. The grip and blade are almost straight, which was a change introduced in the 1870's (as opposed to the more curved style before that). Furthermore, the blade is etched with "HENRY WILKINSON PALL MALL LONDON", which is another indication of which years are in question. Wilkinson moved his shop from Ludgate to Pall Mall around 1849, and the Company changed its name to "The Wilkinson Sword Company Ltd" in 1887.

The Kaskara is etched in Arabic (no scabbard

), Hoping that there may be a tie to the Mahdist Uprising with the Kaskara.......and possibly the Wilkinson Sword

.

It may be possible that the Kaskara could be 'trophy' brought back by the owner of the sword

katana · 11th November 2006, 11:27 PM

Forgot the link....been a bit forgetful tonight...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5214&rd=1&rd=1

spiral · 12th November 2006, 12:15 PM

Quote. "The Kaskara is etched in Arabic (no scabbard ), Hoping that there may be a tie to the Mahdist Uprising with the Kaskara.......and possibly the Wilkinson Sword ."

A Nice bargain bunch!

As the Wilkinson is numbered theres a good chance you can trace who purchased it & when. Then trace thier service history.

Good luck!

Spiral

katana · 12th November 2006, 01:08 PM

Hi Spiral,
thank you,

I am certainly taking your advice...I am hoping that the serial no. matches the name of the original purchaser...or at least the Regiment it went to. At least, I can trace the possibility that the owner/Regiment was/were active in the Sudan at the time of the 'uprising'. Seeing as these swords are from someones estate....it seems strange that they would have a Kaskara 'matched' with it. I am hoping the Kaskara's etched blade may have a date....however, as we know...this would not be definative proof...the date could be faked. I think IMHO that the history of the Wilkinson sword will ..perhaps..provide clues to the provinance of the Kaskara.

Could anyone confirm that that the wooden hilted SEA sword is a 'tourist' item......its just that many iitems sold to travellers are based on genuine articles ....are there SEA swords and scabbards similar to this one??

Is a replacement scabbard for the Wilkinson sword, hard to find? Does anyone know what pattern this sword is ? Thankyou for any information

Battara · 12th November 2006, 08:27 PM

the SE Asian piece is I believe a tourist dha from Vietnam.

katana · 12th November 2006, 11:52 PM

Thanks Battara,
I was fairly sure that it was.....but not fully 100%...lack of knowledge with regards SEA weapons.....but I'm learning

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2006, 06:50 AM

Hi Katana,
Nice to get the kaskara and the quite possibly associated British sabre!
The photos are pretty unclear, but the sabre appears to be a M1822 Royal Artillery officers, if the pommel is stepped (if it is checkered, then it is the M1822 light cavalry). As you have indicated, Henry Wilkinson was located at Pall Mall in London. I believe his partner John Latham continued using the name even after Henry's death in 1861.
Wilkinson was actually originally making guns primarily until his fullered blades replaced the pipe back by 1849, when he began sword production. The firm did not begin numbering blades until 1853, and I am not certain that even then, all were numbered.
As also noted, the straight blade began about 1870's, and this pattern was used until replaced by heavy cavalry pattern in 1896, though actually the use continued beyond that.
Interestingly, a good source on the Sudanese campaigns was published in 1976 by a descendant , Robert Wilkinson-Latham (Osprey #59, "The Sudan Campaigns 1881-98").
The most famed event of these campaigns was the charge of the 21st Lancers at Omdurman Sept. 2, 1898, though the Ansar forces of the Khalifa Abdullah al Taashi were not defeated entirely for another year.

It seems presumable that these swords, at least most likely the kaskara, may have been in use during the Mahdist period. If not mistaken, usually the script on these kaskaras is 'thuluth', typically undecipherable motif, thus a date would not be likely. This is typically acid etched script.

Whatever the case, the swords are excellent representative pieces that typify the swords used during this period.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 13th November 2006, 11:53 AM

Hi Jim,
thankyou for your informative comments....always a pleasure to hear from you

. I must admit I'm quite excited about the prospect of researching the history of both swords. The sword (Wilkinson) is indeed numbered.....my only reservation is that the information held by Wilkinson Sword can be minimal ie only the branch of the Armed Forces that the sword was sold to, is known...... to much more detailed info when sold to an Individual, ie name, rank, regiment etc........only time will tell....
I am also pleased that I'm not the only one who thinks there is a relationship between the two swords..... I was beginnig to think my over active imagination ...had lead me astray.....again

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2006, 02:41 PM

Hi Katana,
You are most welcome! That 'overactive imagination' is actually 'passion for history' and is exactly what has propelled me through decades of adventures with antique edged weapons

When I began collecting, I was fascinated by probably too many action adventures on TV and in movies, especially those on the British Empire such as "Gunga Din", "Charge of the Light Brigade" and "Khartoum" to name a few.
I began collecting British cavalry patterns and eventually began collecting the ethnographic swords that would have been trophies or souveniers presenting the exact scenario here.
I really look forward to hearing more on your findings on the Wilkinson sword. Regardless of the outcome, having a genuine 19th century Wilkinson sword is outstanding, one of the most highly regarded firms that became quintessant in swordmaking.
Thank you for sharing these, and the response!!

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 15th November 2006, 06:33 PM

THE DHA SHORT SWORD IS MADE FOR TOURISTS DURING THE 20 CENTURY AND MANY WERE SOLD IN VIETNAM AND THAILAND TO TROOPS ON LEAVE THERE. THEY ARE WELL CARVED FROM TEAK AND ARE ATTRACTIVE WALL HANGERS BUT THE BLADES ARE NOT VERY GOOD AND THE GRIP DECORATION WOULD INTERFERE A BIT IN USE. THEY WERE NOT MADE FOR USE BUT FOR SOUVINEERS AND DECORATION.

katana · 15th November 2006, 08:15 PM

Hi Vandoo, thankyou for the info....they arrived today and your description of the Dha is most accurate...the grip is indeed OVERSIZED.

I will post pictures of the other two shortly......my camera is 'playing up'

...so it may take a while....

katana · 15th November 2006, 09:40 PM

Here are the pictures of the Wilkinson Sword, a M1822 light cavalry sword as the pommel is chequered (thanks Jim

) . It is nicely balanced and is in very nice condition. I am in the process of matching the serial number to its history...

katana · 15th November 2006, 09:54 PM

Here is the Kaskara.....only 30'' in length OA, the sword shows age, the leather covering the hilt is 'worn' and has shrunk, the blade's etched script is quite worn in places. The blade is typically thin and springy, the crossguard and langets are 'patina-ed' brass...possibly bronze. IMHO quite likely a 'Mahdist' period piece......

11th November 2006, 11:12 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A group of 3 swords won on eBay Hi Everyone, Just acquired 3 swords.....well 2 swords and a SEA Tourist sword. I bid for the Kaskara, but the Cavalry Sword was a bonus, I know the Wilkinson sword was manufactured between 1849 (or 1870's ?) and 1887. According to this article. ' the blade is etched with Queen Victoria's Royal cypher, which places the date of manufacture between the 1837-1901. The grip and blade are almost straight, which was a change introduced in the 1870's (as opposed to the more curved style before that). Furthermore, the blade is etched with "HENRY WILKINSON PALL MALL LONDON", which is another indication of which years are in question. Wilkinson moved his shop from Ludgate to Pall Mall around 1849, and the Company changed its name to "The Wilkinson Sword Company Ltd" in 1887. The Kaskara is etched in Arabic (no scabbard ), Hoping that there may be a tie to the Mahdist Uprising with the Kaskara.......and possibly the Wilkinson Sword . It may be possible that the Kaskara could be 'trophy' brought back by the owner of the sword

15th November 2006, 09:40 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Here are the pictures of the Wilkinson Sword, a M1822 light cavalry sword as the pommel is chequered (thanks Jim ) . It is nicely balanced and is in very nice condition. I am in the process of matching the serial number to its history... Attached Images

15th November 2006, 09:54 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Here is the Kaskara.....only 30'' in length OA, the sword shows age, the leather covering the hilt is 'worn' and has shrunk, the blade's etched script is quite worn in places. The blade is typically thin and springy, the crossguard and langets are 'patina-ed' brass...possibly bronze. IMHO quite likely a 'Mahdist' period piece...... Attached Images

11th November 2006, 11:27 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Forgot the link....been a bit forgetful tonight... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5214&rd=1&rd=1

12th November 2006, 12:15 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Quote. "The Kaskara is etched in Arabic (no scabbard ), Hoping that there may be a tie to the Mahdist Uprising with the Kaskara.......and possibly the Wilkinson Sword ." A Nice bargain bunch! As the Wilkinson is numbered theres a good chance you can trace who purchased it & when. Then trace thier service history. Good luck! Spiral

12th November 2006, 01:08 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Spiral, thank you, I am certainly taking your advice...I am hoping that the serial no. matches the name of the original purchaser...or at least the Regiment it went to. At least, I can trace the possibility that the owner/Regiment was/were active in the Sudan at the time of the 'uprising'. Seeing as these swords are from someones estate....it seems strange that they would have a Kaskara 'matched' with it. I am hoping the Kaskara's etched blade may have a date....however, as we know...this would not be definative proof...the date could be faked. I think IMHO that the history of the Wilkinson sword will ..perhaps..provide clues to the provinance of the Kaskara. Could anyone confirm that that the wooden hilted SEA sword is a 'tourist' item......its just that many iitems sold to travellers are based on genuine articles ....are there SEA swords and scabbards similar to this one?? Is a replacement scabbard for the Wilkinson sword, hard to find? Does anyone know what pattern this sword is ? Thankyou for any information

12th November 2006, 08:27 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	the SE Asian piece is I believe a tourist dha from Vietnam.

12th November 2006, 11:52 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Battara, I was fairly sure that it was.....but not fully 100%...lack of knowledge with regards SEA weapons.....but I'm learning

13th November 2006, 06:50 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Katana, Nice to get the kaskara and the quite possibly associated British sabre! The photos are pretty unclear, but the sabre appears to be a M1822 Royal Artillery officers, if the pommel is stepped (if it is checkered, then it is the M1822 light cavalry). As you have indicated, Henry Wilkinson was located at Pall Mall in London. I believe his partner John Latham continued using the name even after Henry's death in 1861. Wilkinson was actually originally making guns primarily until his fullered blades replaced the pipe back by 1849, when he began sword production. The firm did not begin numbering blades until 1853, and I am not certain that even then, all were numbered. As also noted, the straight blade began about 1870's, and this pattern was used until replaced by heavy cavalry pattern in 1896, though actually the use continued beyond that. Interestingly, a good source on the Sudanese campaigns was published in 1976 by a descendant , Robert Wilkinson-Latham (Osprey #59, "The Sudan Campaigns 1881-98"). The most famed event of these campaigns was the charge of the 21st Lancers at Omdurman Sept. 2, 1898, though the Ansar forces of the Khalifa Abdullah al Taashi were not defeated entirely for another year. It seems presumable that these swords, at least most likely the kaskara, may have been in use during the Mahdist period. If not mistaken, usually the script on these kaskaras is 'thuluth', typically undecipherable motif, thus a date would not be likely. This is typically acid etched script. Whatever the case, the swords are excellent representative pieces that typify the swords used during this period. Best regards, Jim

13th November 2006, 11:53 AM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim, thankyou for your informative comments....always a pleasure to hear from you . I must admit I'm quite excited about the prospect of researching the history of both swords. The sword (Wilkinson) is indeed numbered.....my only reservation is that the information held by Wilkinson Sword can be minimal ie only the branch of the Armed Forces that the sword was sold to, is known...... to much more detailed info when sold to an Individual, ie name, rank, regiment etc........only time will tell.... I am also pleased that I'm not the only one who thinks there is a relationship between the two swords..... I was beginnig to think my over active imagination ...had lead me astray.....again

13th November 2006, 02:41 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Katana, You are most welcome! That 'overactive imagination' is actually 'passion for history' and is exactly what has propelled me through decades of adventures with antique edged weapons When I began collecting, I was fascinated by probably too many action adventures on TV and in movies, especially those on the British Empire such as "Gunga Din", "Charge of the Light Brigade" and "Khartoum" to name a few. I began collecting British cavalry patterns and eventually began collecting the ethnographic swords that would have been trophies or souveniers presenting the exact scenario here. I really look forward to hearing more on your findings on the Wilkinson sword. Regardless of the outcome, having a genuine 19th century Wilkinson sword is outstanding, one of the most highly regarded firms that became quintessant in swordmaking. Thank you for sharing these, and the response!! All the best, Jim

15th November 2006, 06:33 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE DHA SHORT SWORD IS MADE FOR TOURISTS DURING THE 20 CENTURY AND MANY WERE SOLD IN VIETNAM AND THAILAND TO TROOPS ON LEAVE THERE. THEY ARE WELL CARVED FROM TEAK AND ARE ATTRACTIVE WALL HANGERS BUT THE BLADES ARE NOT VERY GOOD AND THE GRIP DECORATION WOULD INTERFERE A BIT IN USE. THEY WERE NOT MADE FOR USE BUT FOR SOUVINEERS AND DECORATION.

15th November 2006, 08:15 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Vandoo, thankyou for the info....they arrived today and your description of the Dha is most accurate...the grip is indeed OVERSIZED. I will post pictures of the other two shortly......my camera is 'playing up' ...so it may take a while....