Early polearm or Lochaber axe or something else ?

Cerjak · 14th November 2019, 07:33 PM

Early polearm or Lochaber axe or something else ?
Your comment are welcome
Overall 60 cm
Weight 3078 gr
Best
Cerjak

Cerjak · 14th November 2019, 07:44 PM

see this link and also the picture
https://www.rct.uk/collection/94950/lochaber-axes

kronckew · 14th November 2019, 07:56 PM

Bardiche?

cornelistromp · 16th November 2019, 02:36 PM

Hi Jean Luc,

I presume this is a so called whale blubber meat cutter with characteristic rounded point and eyes with a distance from the blade. 18 or 19thC

early halberds have a sharp spike and eyes close to the blade.

best,
jasper

David R · 16th November 2019, 10:37 PM

The museum in (Kingstown upon) Hull in the UK has a nice display of Whale disassembly tools and this does not look like any I saw there. So I would say Bardiche or Lochaber axe.

kronckew · 17th November 2019, 11:04 AM

found this 'Croatian Bardiche' on a bing search

Victrix · 17th November 2019, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Jean Luc,

I presume this is a so called whale blubber meat cutter with characteristic rounded point and eyes with a distance from the blade. 18 or 19thC

early halberds have a sharp spike and eyes close to the blade.

best,
jasper

Which publication is this taken from? It looks good.

Victrix · 17th November 2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

found this 'Croatian Bardiche' on a bing search

From the caption I think the bardiche on the left is described as Russian. The war axe on the right is described as Croatian.

kronckew · 17th November 2019, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

From the caption I think the bardiche on the left is described as Russian. The war axe on the right is described as Croatian.

Yes, the search I did was for "Croatian AND Bardiche" just "bardiche" or "russian bardiche did not bring up anything useful. I Added "Croatian" based on another photo that appeared to be germaine, also no ref. noted.

The page says it's Russian, appears to be in German,title of the book was cut off. One of our more bookish experts who have exhaustive libraries may recognise it.

cornelistromp · 17th November 2019, 04:10 PM

post 6 is from Europaische Hieb-und stichwaffen , Mueller koelling.

the early halberds of my post 4 are from Hafted weapons in medieval and renaissance Europe by John Waldman

best,

Victrix · 17th November 2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

post 6 is from Europaische Hieb-und stichwaffen , Mueller koelling.

the early halberds of my post 4 are from Hafted weapons in medieval and renaissance Europe by John Waldman

best,

Thank you for that, Jasper. I think Waldman and Snook are the classics when it comes to halberds. I had forgotten how good the former is -had to look it up again!

kronckew · 17th November 2019, 06:41 PM

Thanks, cornelistromp, looks like a cool book. Will have to buy a copy when I win the lottery. Expensive book.

broadaxe · 21st November 2019, 08:36 PM

Sorry to burst the bubble, it is a French agri-tool called coup-marc.

kronckew · 21st November 2019, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Sorry to burst the bubble, it is a French agri-tool called coup-marc.

...and your source/reference/examples? many agri-tools were also weapons when required like bill hooks, early swiss halberds/ Scots axes, etc.

Kmaddock · 22nd November 2019, 11:19 AM

when i looked up Coup Marc I get the following
regards
Ken

broadaxe · 22nd November 2019, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...and your source/reference/examples? many agri-tools were also weapons when required like bill hooks, early swiss halberds/ Scots axes, etc.

Sure, well known fact. Sometimes it is pretty hard to tell between, sometimes there is no difference. As a collector and researcher, I also believed this fine example of blacksmithing was forged to be a weapon, but no. Too heavy and ill-balanced.
Years ago, a highly respected auction house even labeled a similar piece as "the ever ellusive French double socketed beheading axe", romantic but false.
Boucard, Daniel, 1998, Les Haches, pp. 210-211

broadaxe · 22nd November 2019, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

when i looked up Coup Marc I get the following
regards
Ken

Exactly my point: several patterns, abundant in cider regions like Bretagne.

kronckew · 23rd November 2019, 12:39 AM

gets confusing, a well known tale about an incompetent UK executioner who took a few blows with his axe to remove a ladies noggin, he used what was in actuality a carpenters side axe, used to square beams that had an offset blade with a chisel edge and wasn't designed to chop necks. It's designed to shave a vertical surface of a log flat, not chop stuff.

By the way, searching for a carpenter's side axe i found this modern one. Looks familiar.

I seem to recall us discussing army wagon drivers carrying axes for their use which occasionally got pressed into service if they were attacked, turned out they were also carpenters side axes. apparently many are sold as 'battle axes'.

I also note the originally posted one does NOT have the offset of a carpenter's side axe.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2020, 01:15 AM

According to www.tartansauthority.com

I QUOTE" Halbard
The halberd or battle-axe was a Swiss invention which was a combination of spear and axe on a long handle. It was a direct descendant of the old Gallowglass two-handed, 12 inch bladed axe and was particularly effective against horsemen since the foot soldier could cut and thrust with it.

The 1881 Ancient Scottish Weapons had this to say on axes: The Axe is one of the earliest of weapons. The war-axe of iron, in its earlier forms, differed in no respect from the same implement used as a tool. The earliest form of the weapon-tool is a common axe-head longer and narrower in the shank than those now in use. Such axes are depicted as weapons in the Bayeux tapestry. War-axes of a later time were furnished with prolongations in the line of the shaft and hammers or spikes on the hack of the blade. The Jedburgh Staff was a long-handled axe with a curved or crescentic blade, with or without a back-spike. The Lochaber Axe had an elongated blade usually rounded at the upper end, and the staff was furnished with a hook on the end.

The axe and "broggit staff" appeared in 1425 as the equipment of those who were not archers. In the weaponshaws of 1535 halberts appear along with two-handed swords. The Lochaber Axe and the Jeddart Staff appear in 1643 in company with the broadsword. In 1647 it was appointed that seventy-two men in each regiment should carry halbards, and in 1650 Lord Lorne requests a supply of partisans, from the store at Aberdeen, for the equipment of his regiment of Life Guards''.UNQUOTE.

Another quote from the web clears up the names as Jeddart staff and added names below..

The Jeddart staff (also Jedburgh or Jedwart) is a polearm of the 16th and 17th centuries with a glaive-like blade which is fixed to its haft by two sockets, in the manner of a bardiche. Form D in the Caldwell classification.

I might add ...The nomenclature of Scottish axes, in particular, is confusing, and texts sometimes follow the classification scheme proposed by David H. Caldwell in his 1980 paper "Some Notes on Scottish Axes and Long Shafted Weapons".

kronckew · 27th January 2020, 07:43 AM

The Anglo-Saxon two-handed axes on the Bayeux tapestry are generally known as 'Dane axes' and had a haft about 5ft, more or less and a broad pointy blade that was rather thin and light compared to a wood axe. It was optimised for cutting flesh. The Gallowglass also used a 'Sparth' axe, also around the same length.

After Hastings, many surviving English Huscarls, now unemployed, migrated to the eastern Roman empire and served in the Varagian Guard of the Emperor in Constantinople, and were famous for their Axes.

My Dane axe is shown below, with a smaller viking style hand axe. My Sparth axe is shown below. Both are of course modern reproductions only shown to illustrate their appearances.

corrado26 · 27th January 2020, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

From the caption I think the bardiche on the left is described as Russian. The war axe on the right is described as Croatian.

As the picture have the numbers 213 and 214, not 211/212, the left one is a war axe from Croatia (213) and foot war axe of ca. 1500 (214)

pictures 211/212 show the following arms:

Victrix · 27th January 2020, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

As the picture have the numbers 213 and 214, not 211/212, the left one is a war axe from Croatia (213) and foot war axe of ca. 1500 (214)

pictures 211/212 show the following arms:

Yes makes sense.

BUCC_Guy · 6th March 2020, 04:26 AM

It’s in a family of blades that I’ve seen on the market that are usually attributed to the French. Sale ads range from 16th to 18th century. They have a voulge-like blade and unusually small mounting holes, with the blade often curved backwards over the pole.

I have attached a random example of what I’m talking about.

Whether they are actually weapons... or French... is beyond me.

Cerjak · 4th May 2020, 08:38 AM

Description made by Christies in 2012

A LARGE IRON VOUGE STAFF-WEAPON HEAD
ALMOST CERTAINLY 15TH CENTURY
With heavy curved blade (tips reprofiled) struck on one face with a series of marks and on the other face with one corresponding mark, with two forge-welded sockets, the cutting-edge probably originally forge-welded steel (heavy discolouration and corrosion marking throughout)
18½in. (47cm.) long

Cerjak · 4th May 2020, 08:49 AM

Exhibit in the Higgins Armory Museum, 100 Barber Avenue, Worcester, Massachusetts, USA

Yvain · 4th May 2020, 09:33 AM

This is indeed a coupe-marc / couteau à marc / couteau de pressoir, most likely from the XIXth century (XVIIIth being possible too). The shape is characteristic, and is one of the most widely used for this kind of tool.

Although some tools were indeed used as polearms, or evolved into them, this is way too heavy to be used effectively as a weapon.

Similar examples coming from museums in Normandie (a well known cider producing region of France):

https://collections.musees-normandie...b-8568daf8c665

https://collections.musees-normandie...b-8568daf8c665

https://collections.musees-normandie...b-8568daf8c665

14th November 2019, 07:33 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Early polearm or Lochaber axe or something else ? Early polearm or Lochaber axe or something else ? Your comment are welcome Overall 60 cm Weight 3078 gr Best Cerjak Attached Images

14th November 2019, 07:44 PM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	see this link and also the picture https://www.rct.uk/collection/94950/lochaber-axes Attached Images

16th November 2019, 02:36 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Jean Luc, I presume this is a so called whale blubber meat cutter with characteristic rounded point and eyes with a distance from the blade. 18 or 19thC early halberds have a sharp spike and eyes close to the blade. best, jasper Attached Images

17th November 2019, 11:04 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	found this 'Croatian Bardiche' on a bing search Attached Images

17th November 2019, 06:41 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	Thanks, cornelistromp, looks like a cool book. Will have to buy a copy when I win the lottery. Expensive book. Attached Images

14th November 2019, 07:56 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	Bardiche?

16th November 2019, 10:37 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The museum in (Kingstown upon) Hull in the UK has a nice display of Whale disassembly tools and this does not look like any I saw there. So I would say Bardiche or Lochaber axe.

17th November 2019, 04:10 PM	#10
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	post 6 is from Europaische Hieb-und stichwaffen , Mueller koelling. the early halberds of my post 4 are from Hafted weapons in medieval and renaissance Europe by John Waldman best,

21st November 2019, 08:36 PM	#13
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Sorry to burst the bubble, it is a French agri-tool called coup-marc.

22nd November 2019, 11:19 AM	#15
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	when i looked up Coup Marc I get the following regards Ken Attached Images

23rd November 2019, 12:39 AM	#18
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	gets confusing, a well known tale about an incompetent UK executioner who took a few blows with his axe to remove a ladies noggin, he used what was in actuality a carpenters side axe, used to square beams that had an offset blade with a chisel edge and wasn't designed to chop necks. It's designed to shave a vertical surface of a log flat, not chop stuff. By the way, searching for a carpenter's side axe i found this modern one. Looks familiar. I seem to recall us discussing army wagon drivers carrying axes for their use which occasionally got pressed into service if they were attacked, turned out they were also carpenters side axes. apparently many are sold as 'battle axes'. I also note the originally posted one does NOT have the offset of a carpenter's side axe. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 23rd November 2019 at 12:54 AM.

27th January 2020, 01:15 AM	#19
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	According to www.tartansauthority.com I QUOTE" Halbard The halberd or battle-axe was a Swiss invention which was a combination of spear and axe on a long handle. It was a direct descendant of the old Gallowglass two-handed, 12 inch bladed axe and was particularly effective against horsemen since the foot soldier could cut and thrust with it. The 1881 Ancient Scottish Weapons had this to say on axes: The Axe is one of the earliest of weapons. The war-axe of iron, in its earlier forms, differed in no respect from the same implement used as a tool. The earliest form of the weapon-tool is a common axe-head longer and narrower in the shank than those now in use. Such axes are depicted as weapons in the Bayeux tapestry. War-axes of a later time were furnished with prolongations in the line of the shaft and hammers or spikes on the hack of the blade. The Jedburgh Staff was a long-handled axe with a curved or crescentic blade, with or without a back-spike. The Lochaber Axe had an elongated blade usually rounded at the upper end, and the staff was furnished with a hook on the end. The axe and "broggit staff" appeared in 1425 as the equipment of those who were not archers. In the weaponshaws of 1535 halberts appear along with two-handed swords. The Lochaber Axe and the Jeddart Staff appear in 1643 in company with the broadsword. In 1647 it was appointed that seventy-two men in each regiment should carry halbards, and in 1650 Lord Lorne requests a supply of partisans, from the store at Aberdeen, for the equipment of his regiment of Life Guards''.UNQUOTE. Another quote from the web clears up the names as Jeddart staff and added names below.. The Jeddart staff (also Jedburgh or Jedwart) is a polearm of the 16th and 17th centuries with a glaive-like blade which is fixed to its haft by two sockets, in the manner of a bardiche. Form D in the Caldwell classification. I might add ...The nomenclature of Scottish axes, in particular, is confusing, and texts sometimes follow the classification scheme proposed by David H. Caldwell in his 1980 paper "Some Notes on Scottish Axes and Long Shafted Weapons".

27th January 2020, 07:43 AM	#20
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	The Anglo-Saxon two-handed axes on the Bayeux tapestry are generally known as 'Dane axes' and had a haft about 5ft, more or less and a broad pointy blade that was rather thin and light compared to a wood axe. It was optimised for cutting flesh. The Gallowglass also used a 'Sparth' axe, also around the same length. After Hastings, many surviving English Huscarls, now unemployed, migrated to the eastern Roman empire and served in the Varagian Guard of the Emperor in Constantinople, and were famous for their Axes. My Dane axe is shown below, with a smaller viking style hand axe. My Sparth axe is shown below. Both are of course modern reproductions only shown to illustrate their appearances. Attached Images

6th March 2020, 04:26 AM	#23
BUCC_Guy Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 52	It’s in a family of blades that I’ve seen on the market that are usually attributed to the French. Sale ads range from 16th to 18th century. They have a voulge-like blade and unusually small mounting holes, with the blade often curved backwards over the pole. I have attached a random example of what I’m talking about. Whether they are actually weapons... or French... is beyond me. Attached Images

4th May 2020, 08:38 AM	#24
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	A LARGE IRON VOUGE STAFF-WEAPON HEAD Description made by Christies in 2012 A LARGE IRON VOUGE STAFF-WEAPON HEAD ALMOST CERTAINLY 15TH CENTURY With heavy curved blade (tips reprofiled) struck on one face with a series of marks and on the other face with one corresponding mark, with two forge-welded sockets, the cutting-edge probably originally forge-welded steel (heavy discolouration and corrosion marking throughout) 18½in. (47cm.) long Attached Images

4th May 2020, 08:49 AM	#25
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Exhibit in the Higgins Armory Museum, 100 Barber Avenue, Worcester, Massachusetts, US Exhibit in the Higgins Armory Museum, 100 Barber Avenue, Worcester, Massachusetts, USA Attached Images

4th May 2020, 09:33 AM	#26
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 178	This is indeed a coupe-marc / couteau à marc / couteau de pressoir, most likely from the XIXth century (XVIIIth being possible too). The shape is characteristic, and is one of the most widely used for this kind of tool. Although some tools were indeed used as polearms, or evolved into them, this is way too heavy to be used effectively as a weapon. Similar examples coming from museums in Normandie (a well known cider producing region of France): https://collections.musees-normandie...b-8568daf8c665 https://collections.musees-normandie...b-8568daf8c665 https://collections.musees-normandie...b-8568daf8c665