New stick to pick over.

[Tim Simmons]

I have just got this from well you know where. What I very much hope is a South Sudan fighting stick. I will post more sensitive pics with other sticks when it arrives. The AUS Aborigines use a similar fighting stick. I wonder if it might be possible for others to post pics so a comparitive study can be made?

[katana]

I saw something similar to this on eBay. I had assumed it was a shaft for a spear with socketted ends........I never thought it could be a fighting stick

[VANDOO]

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY FIGHTING STICKS OF THAT FORM BUT IT RESEMBLES A SPEAR OR ARROW POINT FROM THE SOUTH PACIFIC OR A LOVE STICK FROM MICRONESIA. YOU CAN GOOGLE (MICRONESIA LOVE STICK) FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. IF IT IS LARGE ROUND AND HEAVY THAT WOULD ELIMINATE IT FROM BEING EITHER OF THE ABOVE. LOVE STICKS ARE USUALLY FLAT AND THIN AND SPEAR AND ARROW POINTS LIGHT AND THIN. THEY DO HAVE FIGHTING STICKS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC WHICH ARE GRIPPED IN THE MIDDLE AND CAN STRIKE TO EITHER SIDE THEY ARE USUALLY FAIRLY SHORT FOR SPEED AND SO THEY WONT STICK AS MULTIPLE STABS ARE OFTEN NECESSARY TO WIN A FIGHT. THE WOOD IN YOUR EXAMPLE DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THOSE USUALLY USED IN THE ISLANDS. GOOD LUCK I HOPE YOU FIND IT IS ACTUALLY WHAT YOU ARE WISHING FOR.

[Tim Simmons]

There is a stabbing form of "Nulla nulla" similar to this double pointed stick with a swelling in or near the centre as a grip. This link has not very impressive contemporary examples. So far I have been unable to find a picture of the short double pointed stabbing stick I have seen before.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Tim Simmons]

Still looking for more finely made older sharpened examples but these show something of the form and AUS is a big place. The first link the example is 3cm longer than the thread starter. The second link the example is 9cm shorter.
http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/br112.html
http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/ct03.html

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tim,
You always keep bringing in fascinating new entries from Africa, and it's great to learn more on the ever widening scope of weapons revealed from the cultures there thanks to you!
The fighting sticks are most interesting and I honestly know little about them aside from seeing something on them while researching the Sudanese 'haladie' some time ago. It is most interesting to see weapons of similar concept and presumably similar use coming from such vastly distant regions. The 'nulla nulla' you note from Australia, the 'haladie' which Stone notes in from Syria as well as found in the Sudan, and of course the buffalo horn 'madu' of India. While such vast distances suggest convergent evolution, it is tempting to consider early connections via trade in certain cases...although the Australian connection seems pretty remote and probably unlikely of course.

Best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

I'm not sure about the convergence idea of poking someone with a sharp stick. It seems pretty intuitive to me

That said, I'm not comfortable with this item being a nulla. Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

[Jim McDougall]

Good point Fearn!!!
I was thinking more of the double pointed ends and the idea of using it held in the center, if that was indeed how it was used. I'm obviously not real familiar with these so kinda thinking out loud. As I've noted, Tim's threads and unusual African items are always a welcome learning experience!
All best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Clearly this is African, I was trying only to make a comparison to an AUS Aboriginal weapon I have seen a "version" of Nulla. Here is a quick sketch of the stick weapon I have seen in the past. Sadly untill somebody comes up with one or I find one in a book or a collection the drawing may as well be a Pooh stick.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tim,
That is much more like the example I had seen in the earlier research where I considered the similarity to the madu and haladie. I wish I could think of where it was I saw it , but it was definitely African tribe using them! The memory slips outa gear more often these days!
Best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

It is here and I think it is fabulous but I like this sort of thing, at four portions a real snip. This picture gives some idea of the feel of the thing. How about a right hook in the neck just under your jaw bone. Nice

[katana]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

Hi Fearn,
it does seem likely that this was turned on a lathe, however primative lathes have been around for centuries, one of the earliest know was around 1300 BC in Ancient Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polelathe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_turning

Regards David

[katana]

There is a version of this double ended 'club' from the Gilbert Isles, the picture is not to clear but seems to have 'cut rings' similar to Tim's.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=13

[Tim Simmons]

The grip section is egg shaped. This ovoid section follws most of the weapon not reaching any true round cross section.

[Tim Simmons]

This is along the same lines just not as fancy and 10cm longer but they do say it is a throwing club where as my stick is for stabbing at close quarter.
http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/zo...3.16.119_b.jpg

[Jim McDougall]

Good call on the note on the early Egyptian lathe Katana! It's amazing how much technology has existed from ancient times.

I'm wondering more on the use of this most interesting double pointed stick, as I am completely unfamiliar with martial arts use of many of these weapons. It seems that held centrally, the sharp points at either end would enable the weapon holder to thrust virtually forward and behind without a great deal of movement...in close quarters such as a melee where such space would be restricted. Would that be correct?

[Tim Simmons]

It seems to me that when one is close in with a weapon like this aided with a punching parrying shield. Ideally a stabbing action would win the day. Two points would mean a possible hit on a return or being ready for the next strike without any fancy maneuver. For sure the warriors that used these did not just wave them about screaming "ugagabunga" they would have been skilled in there use.

[fearn]

Hi Katana,

You're absolutely right about lathes. The point is that one wouldn't expect that an australian aboriginal stick (at least an old-fashioned one) would be turned on a lathe. They were all hand carved--basically, nulla nullas are clubs of no definite shape (pointed or not) often used by women for hunting, fighting, throwing, etc.

I think we're agreed that this is African. I'm still wondering whether it's not the center piece of something like a samburu spear. I'm only familiar with samburus from the modern version sold by Cold Steel (not an endorsement, merely an observation), but this one looks like it could easily fit a socketed spear head on one end, and a socketed spike butt on the other.

Neat piece, whatever it is.

F

[VANDOO]

DEFINITELY NOT A LOVE STICK, TOO FANCY FOR A AUSTRALIAN NULLANULLA, ALSO NOT A SOUTH PACIFIC ARROW OR SPEAR POINT. THE WOOD DOES LOOK LIKE SOME USED IN AFRICA AND AUSTRALIA. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS BUT I LIKE IT AND IT IS VERY WELL MADE.

HERE ARE TWO WEAPONS FROM MICRONESIA THEY ARE GRIPPED IN THE CENTER AND CAN BE USED TO STRIKE IN EITHER DIRECTION GOOD FOR CLOSE IN FIGHTING. BOTH ARE WOOD WITH FIBER WRAPPED GRIPS ONE HAS ROUND SPIKES THE OTHER IS DOUBLE EDGED THICK BLADE SHAPED. BOTH ARE A LOT SHORTER THAN YOUR EXAMPLE ALL THE BETTER FOR CLOSE UP.

[Tim Simmons]

I have a couple of spears here at home, on none of them does there seem to be any similarity with this stick. The weight of this piece, aside from the ovoid section. The heaviest of my spears all have a basically round section and far less dense wood as a haft. The narrow points in relation to the main stick would make an extremely uncomfortable spear.
That cold steel stuff is a little strange to me being a touch fanciful. I paid just less than double the dollar price each!! for the real thing recently but that was a little unusual to my mind.