MORO SILVER HILTED

Flavio · 23rd July 2007, 10:41 PM

Here is a nice kris that maybe someone already knows

I have etched the blade but there is something strange: the area near the gangya shows a clear lamination, but the rest of the blade is black!!! Anyway, even if the pictures are quite bad, you can see a nice lamination. Maybe this is due to many and many deep polishings of the blade that have removed the "superficial" steel, and so the original lamination that is something like you see near the ganya???? Any comment is welcome and appreciated

Tim Simmons · 23rd July 2007, 11:00 PM

That is an unexpected occurrence. Is it possible that there are two parts to this blade. ? In the motor trade it might be known as a cut and shut.

kai · 24th July 2007, 12:06 AM

Hello Flavio,

That one wasn't cheap.

Quote:

I have etched the blade but there is something strange: the area near the gangya shows a clear lamination, but the rest of the blade is black!!! Anyway, even if the pictures are quite bad, you can see a nice lamination. Maybe this is due to many and many deep polishings of the blade that have removed the "superficial" steel, and so the original lamination that is something like you see near the ganya????

I suspect you may have a real winner here... Could you please email larger close-ups of the blade?

The original sandwich construction is certainly still intact: I do see blurry laminations towards the tip of the blade. I think you're just in for some more rounds of polishing and etching to get a very pleasing result - go for it!

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 24th July 2007, 12:57 AM

Agree with Kai; I think I might see a twist core hiding in there ..

Bill · 24th July 2007, 02:41 AM

I agree with Kai & Rick that it would be worth it to re-polish & etch again. I have a wavey kris that is somewhat simular. The inner core much lighter, the outside almost being black (I've never etched it). In almost the same place as in Flavio's kriss, mine also has the same characteristics except it's a very distinct line that's the same on both sides. I've always assumed that it is a quench line but I'm far from certain. My sword has held a very sharp edge. Usually I have noticed, while etching, old rust area's will come out dark/black; but definitely, some steels will etch out almost black while others in the same blade stay light.

kai · 24th July 2007, 08:10 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

I have a wavey kris that is somewhat simular. The inner core much lighter, the outside almost being black (I've never etched it). In almost the same place as in Flavio's kriss, mine also has the same characteristics except it's a very distinct line that's the same on both sides. I've always assumed that it is a quench line but I'm far from certain.

No, not a quench line: Your's is a perfect example of the usual sandwich construction with the outer steel with less carbon (but more tensile strength) partly covering the central plate of harder high carbon steel. Both steels can show laminations although this is usually only obvious within the low carbon steel (both for twist core as well as more laminar/random pattern welded blades).

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 24th July 2007, 02:24 PM

Kai, Sorry but the picture doesn't show my point well. I'm not set up for pics right now & added this one as a after-thought to my post (I had it on disk). There is a faint line on the pic (very strong on visual expection) about 5 cm from the hilt. The outer darkness stays the same on both sides of the line but the inner core has noticable differences in the lamination. That is the line, that may be a quench line. I assume the smith started by making a straight sword, adding the waves after. Would he use constant quenching to keep previous "waves" from being distorted as he preceded? Kris generally keep a very sharp edge, this one is even sharper then the usual, another reason it may have a unusual quench "marking"?

josh stout · 24th July 2007, 04:51 PM

I have seen a lighter area at the forte of a blade on a Chinese dao that Philip Tom attributed to annealing. The idea was to reheat the base of the blade and let it cool slowly to increase durability at the expense of hardness in an area where hardness is not as important. This is not a comment on the underlying pattern of the steel, but the lighter area at the base of the blade looks almost exactly like what I saw on the dao.
Josh

Flavio · 24th July 2007, 06:28 PM

Thank you guys

!! Yeah, I will try to re-polished an etched again the blade hoping and praying that is a twisted core blade!!!! Any suggestion on the age? Is another end of 19th - early 20th century kris? (nothing wrong with kris of this age, of course

)

Flavio · 24th July 2007, 07:16 PM

Well, since I will not have the time in the next few days to re-polish and re etch the blade I have a more close look at the blade: in on side there are three (maybe four) clear rows that comes from the gangya area untill the point in the middle portion of the blade (the center). On the other side these rows are clear but I can see also some other thinner lines (the others in the center of the blade are 0.6 mm circa of width). In the pictures you can see a photo taken before of the etching: there are some strange, how can I say, "cracks" on the blade....

kai · 24th July 2007, 09:15 PM

Hello Flavio,

Quote:

I will try to re-polished an etched again the blade hoping and praying that is a twisted core blade!!!!

Take your time - I'm pretty sure it is a twist core...

Quote:

Any suggestion on the age? Is another end of 19th - early 20th century kris?

I'd guess at late 19th century, possibly picked up during the Spanish-American war...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 24th July 2007, 09:26 PM

Hello Josh,

Quote:

I have seen a lighter area at the forte of a blade on a Chinese dao that Philip Tom attributed to annealing. The idea was to reheat the base of the blade and let it cool slowly to increase durability at the expense of hardness in an area where hardness is not as important.

Thanks for the nice observation! Maybe this would be preferable to do before attaching the gangya; it seems safe to assume that the latter was also annealed for ease of working and toughness.

The only other explanation which comes to my mind would be quenching almost the whole blade in some fluid...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 24th July 2007, 09:31 PM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

There is a faint line on the pic (very strong on visual expection) about 5 cm from the hilt. The outer darkness stays the same on both sides of the line but the inner core has noticable differences in the lamination. That is the line, that may be a quench line.

Sorry, didn't saw that!

Actually, I'm still having a hard time to locate that line - I'd appreciate a close-up whenever you find some time to take pics.

Regards,
Kai

Flavio · 25th July 2007, 11:54 PM

Hi all!! Well I was so curoius that I can't wait: I have tried but don't seems to be twisted core..... I'm so sorry, I was hoping.... Anyway I haven't taken pictures because it wasn't worth. I have polished and etched twice one side of the blade, one time with cloruric ferric and than with lemon, but nothing. Anyway I will try again on the whole blade with vinegar.... The last chance

kai · 26th July 2007, 09:22 AM

Hello Flavio,

Quote:

Anyway I haven't taken pictures because it wasn't worth. I have polished and etched twice one side of the blade, one time with cloruric ferric and than with lemon, but nothing. Anyway I will try again on the whole blade with vinegar....

Hmm, weird - don't give up unless you get clear evidence for some other pattern!

Please do take close-ups of the blade at each step! Even it may not look pretty there may be more hints on this blade. If these suggest twist core and the blade is just difficult to stain, this may be worth handing over to Philip Tom.

Regards,
Kai

josh stout · 26th July 2007, 05:54 PM

I agree, those forge lines on the blade really look like evidence of twist core. Just because you can't get it to show up don't give up hope. Some patterns will show up for anyone, and some take more expert care.
Josh

Flavio · 26th July 2007, 09:37 PM

Hi Josh, hi Kai! you guys are right: I will try again, but could be that I will not able to bring out the pattern

Hope that will works next time

Battara · 27th July 2007, 01:28 AM

Although...........sometimes there are forging markes or "cracks" like these and no pattern at all - I have seen and even have one.

katana · 27th July 2007, 10:05 PM

I hope I am wrong, but could some of the 'cracks' be the remains of decorative etching, now mostly worn or polished out?

Flavio · 27th July 2007, 10:17 PM

Hello David, I don't know, but IMO they are too much irregular

Flavio · 28th July 2007, 04:35 PM

Well, guys, I need all you help here: attached are many (maybe too much

) pictures of the result.... If in some parts seems that the blade could be twisted core, in other no at all!! So please, be so kind to be clear

: it's me (i'm not an expert and this is not my field, so no offens) or it's the blade???

Thanks a lot

Flavio · 28th July 2007, 04:40 PM

others

Flavio · 28th July 2007, 04:42 PM

two more

Battara · 28th July 2007, 07:48 PM

Keep re-etching it - something is coming out, though may be a lamination instead of twistcore.....

Rick · 28th July 2007, 09:49 PM

It seems to me that all citrus fruits act a little differently; have you tried lime yet ?

Tim Simmons · 28th July 2007, 10:11 PM

I know nothing about these things really but to me it looks like two billets are worked into one here. At what stage the smith decided more metal was needed one cannot tell. It seems clear more material has been added in the forging of this blade, a confluence at the forte is evident. I could be completely barking.

Flavio · 28th July 2007, 10:19 PM

Hi Jose, maybe from pictures it's not so clear, but for sure the blade is laminated (parallel lamination alongs the blade). I have etched the blade for an hour or so with some stops to clear the vinegar with cold water and this is the result. All other weapons that I have etched didn't take so long time to shows the pattern

Hi RIck, no I have tried with vinegar, cloruric ferric and lemon (in every different etching, not together

). This time with vinegar again

Rick · 29th July 2007, 02:58 AM

"Put de Lime on de kris blade and rub it all up,
Put de Lime on de kris blade and tell us in de morning .... "

David · 29th July 2007, 05:09 AM

...Ooh ooh, ain't there nothing i can make,
I say Doc-tor, to improve this twisted snake

Flavio · 29th July 2007, 08:32 AM

23rd July 2007, 10:41 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	MORO SILVER HILTED Here is a nice kris that maybe someone already knows I have etched the blade but there is something strange: the area near the gangya shows a clear lamination, but the rest of the blade is black!!! Anyway, even if the pictures are quite bad, you can see a nice lamination. Maybe this is due to many and many deep polishings of the blade that have removed the "superficial" steel, and so the original lamination that is something like you see near the ganya???? Any comment is welcome and appreciated Attached Images

24th July 2007, 02:41 AM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I agree with Kai & Rick that it would be worth it to re-polish & etch again. I have a wavey kris that is somewhat simular. The inner core much lighter, the outside almost being black (I've never etched it). In almost the same place as in Flavio's kriss, mine also has the same characteristics except it's a very distinct line that's the same on both sides. I've always assumed that it is a quench line but I'm far from certain. My sword has held a very sharp edge. Usually I have noticed, while etching, old rust area's will come out dark/black; but definitely, some steels will etch out almost black while others in the same blade stay light. Attached Images Last edited by Bill; 24th July 2007 at 03:07 AM.

24th July 2007, 07:16 PM	#10
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well, since I will not have the time in the next few days to re-polish and re etch the blade I have a more close look at the blade: in on side there are three (maybe four) clear rows that comes from the gangya area untill the point in the middle portion of the blade (the center). On the other side these rows are clear but I can see also some other thinner lines (the others in the center of the blade are 0.6 mm circa of width). In the pictures you can see a photo taken before of the etching: there are some strange, how can I say, "cracks" on the blade.... Attached Images

28th July 2007, 04:35 PM	#21
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well, guys, I need all you help here: attached are many (maybe too much ) pictures of the result.... If in some parts seems that the blade could be twisted core, in other no at all!! So please, be so kind to be clear : it's me (i'm not an expert and this is not my field, so no offens) or it's the blade??? Thanks a lot Attached Images

28th July 2007, 04:40 PM	#22
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	others Attached Images

23rd July 2007, 11:00 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is an unexpected occurrence. Is it possible that there are two parts to this blade. ? In the motor trade it might be known as a cut and shut.

24th July 2007, 12:57 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Agree with Kai; I think I might see a twist core hiding in there ..

24th July 2007, 02:24 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Kai, Sorry but the picture doesn't show my point well. I'm not set up for pics right now & added this one as a after-thought to my post (I had it on disk). There is a faint line on the pic (very strong on visual expection) about 5 cm from the hilt. The outer darkness stays the same on both sides of the line but the inner core has noticable differences in the lamination. That is the line, that may be a quench line. I assume the smith started by making a straight sword, adding the waves after. Would he use constant quenching to keep previous "waves" from being distorted as he preceded? Kris generally keep a very sharp edge, this one is even sharper then the usual, another reason it may have a unusual quench "marking"?

24th July 2007, 04:51 PM	#8
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I have seen a lighter area at the forte of a blade on a Chinese dao that Philip Tom attributed to annealing. The idea was to reheat the base of the blade and let it cool slowly to increase durability at the expense of hardness in an area where hardness is not as important. This is not a comment on the underlying pattern of the steel, but the lighter area at the base of the blade looks almost exactly like what I saw on the dao. Josh

24th July 2007, 06:28 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you guys !! Yeah, I will try to re-polished an etched again the blade hoping and praying that is a twisted core blade!!!! Any suggestion on the age? Is another end of 19th - early 20th century kris? (nothing wrong with kris of this age, of course )

25th July 2007, 11:54 PM	#14
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all!! Well I was so curoius that I can't wait: I have tried but don't seems to be twisted core..... I'm so sorry, I was hoping.... Anyway I haven't taken pictures because it wasn't worth. I have polished and etched twice one side of the blade, one time with cloruric ferric and than with lemon, but nothing. Anyway I will try again on the whole blade with vinegar.... The last chance

26th July 2007, 05:54 PM	#16
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I agree, those forge lines on the blade really look like evidence of twist core. Just because you can't get it to show up don't give up hope. Some patterns will show up for anyone, and some take more expert care. Josh

26th July 2007, 09:37 PM	#17
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Josh, hi Kai! you guys are right: I will try again, but could be that I will not able to bring out the pattern Hope that will works next time

27th July 2007, 01:28 AM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Although...........sometimes there are forging markes or "cracks" like these and no pattern at all - I have seen and even have one.

27th July 2007, 10:05 PM	#19
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I hope I am wrong, but could some of the 'cracks' be the remains of decorative etching, now mostly worn or polished out?

27th July 2007, 10:17 PM	#20
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello David, I don't know, but IMO they are too much irregular

28th July 2007, 04:42 PM	#23
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	two more Attached Images

28th July 2007, 07:48 PM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Keep re-etching it - something is coming out, though may be a lamination instead of twistcore.....

28th July 2007, 09:49 PM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	It seems to me that all citrus fruits act a little differently; have you tried lime yet ?

28th July 2007, 10:11 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I know nothing about these things really but to me it looks like two billets are worked into one here. At what stage the smith decided more metal was needed one cannot tell. It seems clear more material has been added in the forging of this blade, a confluence at the forte is evident. I could be completely barking.

28th July 2007, 10:19 PM	#27
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jose, maybe from pictures it's not so clear, but for sure the blade is laminated (parallel lamination alongs the blade). I have etched the blade for an hour or so with some stops to clear the vinegar with cold water and this is the result. All other weapons that I have etched didn't take so long time to shows the pattern Hi RIck, no I have tried with vinegar, cloruric ferric and lemon (in every different etching, not together ). This time with vinegar again

29th July 2007, 02:58 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Liberties Taken With A Song ... "Put de Lime on de kris blade and rub it all up, Put de Lime on de kris blade and tell us in de morning .... "

29th July 2007, 05:09 AM	#29
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	More liberties with a song! ...Ooh ooh, ain't there nothing i can make, I say Doc-tor, to improve this twisted snake

29th July 2007, 08:32 AM	#30
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243