Could you help me with this blucher style saber?

[Forja Fontenla]

Hello people!
I need your wisdom to solve something about the origin of this blucher-type saber. It only has this mark that looks like a ship
The scabbard has two rings and the ferrules that assemble them to the scabbard are made of bronze.
Thank you!!
Best regards!

[toaster5sqn]

While I can't help with the ship mark I can say it's likely your sword is one of the later derivative models rather than an M1811 Blutcher. Most telling is the narrow point such as is seen on the M1848 Mounted Artillery Sabre. Also the lack of langets could be significant or they could have been removed in service.

Robert

[Jim McDougall]

I am so glad to see this example, which has a distinct mark that has remained unidentified, and this is after thorough checks with every resource known concerning markings. It was first shown by BBJW in 2008, with I think 3 responses no info forthcoming.

In that thread it appears on a 'cutlass' with markings W I D C No.38
which is to the West India Docks in London. Here vessels embarking for West Indies and returning had goods being guarded by security personnel, the force was typically 100 men. The number clearly a rack number.

For those interested use West India Docks on the search bar and the three unsuccessful threads will appear.

As far as I could find, the F H initials on either side of the apparent mast on the 'vessel' ? are most likely to Friedrich Horster of Solingen (1825-1875).
What is odd is that he only used initials F H on his blades.

The cutlass in question seems to be c.1820s and likely later, which would coincide with the M1811 Blucher type saber here.
As noted, the Blucher pattern was used perpetually into the WWI period, however examples after mid 19th c. had notably lighter blades.

It is unclear why Horster would use this 'maritime' theme added to his initials and interesting that the device or mark might signify him catering to naval maritime clientele.

With that perhaps this might be a saber for such naval connection? an officers saber, or again similar naval security forces?
Apparently Horster had agency offices in England.

My next stop would be the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich.

[Forja Fontenla]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am so glad to see this example, which has a distinct mark that has remained unidentified, and this is after thorough checks with every resource known concerning markings. It was first shown by BBJW in 2008, with I think 3 responses no info forthcoming.

In that thread it appears on a 'cutlass' with markings W I D C No.38
which is to the West India Docks in London. Here vessels embarking for West Indies and returning had goods being guarded by security personnel, the force was typically 100 men. The number clearly a rack number.

For those interested use West India Docks on the search bar and the three unsuccessful threads will appear.

As far as I could find, the F H initials on either side of the apparent mast on the 'vessel' ? are most likely to Friedrich Horster of Solingen (1825-1875).
What is odd is that he only used initials F H on his blades.

The cutlass in question seems to be c.1820s and likely later, which would coincide with the M1811 Blucher type saber here.
As noted, the Blucher pattern was used perpetually into the WWI period, however examples after mid 19th c. had notably lighter blades.

It is unclear why Horster would use this 'maritime' theme added to his initials and interesting that the device or mark might signify him catering to naval maritime clientele.

With that perhaps this might be a saber for such naval connection? an officers saber, or again similar naval security forces?
Apparently Horster had agency offices in England.

My next stop would be the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich.

Thanks Jim!
But how interesting!
Thank you very much for the info
Could this saber have belonged to the West India Dock Police?
https://british-police-history.uk/f/west-india-dock

[Forja Fontenla]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

While I can't help with the ship mark I can say it's likely your sword is one of the later derivative models rather than an M1811 Blutcher. Most telling is the narrow point such as is seen on the M1848 Mounted Artillery Sabre. Also the lack of langets could be significant or they could have been removed in service.

Robert

Thanks Robert!!
Was removal of langets frequent?
Or did they come like that from the factory?
Eduardo

[BBJW]

My WIDC cutlass has the same maker's mark- F H and the boat. Yours with the same mark is the only other one I've seen.-- bbjw

[Forja Fontenla]

Originally Posted by BBJW

My WIDC cutlass has the same maker's mark- F H and the boat. Yours with the same mark is the only other one I've seen.-- bbjw

BBJW
Where did you find it?
I live in Argentina. My country, during the wars of independence (1810-1825) and later during the civil wars (Unitarios Vs Federales) it was customary to acquire surplus weapons until they began to regulate weapons around 1870.
It is possible that this saber reached these lands in those times...
Eduardo

[toaster5sqn]

Originally Posted by Forja Fontenla

BBJW
Where did you find it?
I live in Argentina. My country, during the wars of independence (1810-1825) and later during the civil wars (Unitarios Vs Federales) it was customary to acquire surplus weapons until they began to regulate weapons around 1870.
It is possible that this saber reached these lands in those times...
Eduardo

I did find some hints when trying to identify what turned out to be a Prussian M1848 at the local museum that swords of that type may have been supplied to South America so that is very likely the source.

The langets were often removed in the field but it is entirely possible that a batch could have been ordered without them.

Robert

[Jim McDougall]

Eduardo, thank you for that most informative link! That was exactly what I was suggesting and seeing that there were apparently mounted patrols as well, perhaps these sabers were provided.

As Horster seems to have used only initials FH on his blades, it is tempting to think possible the stylized vessel device was used either in a brief period of his manufacture, or aligned with contract for naval oriented swords.

With the merger in 1818 it would seem the cutlasses marked WIDC (West India Docks Constabulary?) would be the terminus post quem for that acronym?

All speculations, and the South American circumstances are intriguing! Thank you for sharing these.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Eduardo, thank you for that most informative link! That was exactly what I was suggesting and seeing that there were apparently mounted patrols as well, perhaps these sabers were provided.

As Horster seems to have used only initials FH on his blades, it is tempting to think possible the stylized vessel device was used either in a brief period of his manufacture, or aligned with contract for naval oriented swords.

With the merger in 1818 it would seem the cutlasses marked WIDC (West India Docks Constabulary?) would be the terminus post quem for that acronym?

All speculations, and the South American circumstances are intriguing! Thank you for sharing these.

Hi Jim,
Check out this link which I hope is of interest.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/su...43-4/pp248-268
I think that WIDC stands for West India Docks Company rather than "Constabulary"
Regards Stu

[BBJW]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Jim,
Check out this link which I hope is of interest.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/su...43-4/pp248-268
I think that WIDC stands for West India Docks Company rather than "Constabulary"
Regards Stu

It stands for company. My WIDC cutlass came from Eastern Europe and how it got there is a mystery. Also the WIDC museum dated it circa 1812-1820 and asked if I cared to donate it. Cheers- bbjw

[awdaniec666]

To round it up, here is a Blücher (M1811/ Säbel a/M) for comparison from my collection.

[Forja Fontenla]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

To round it up, here is a Blücher (M1811/ Säbel a/M) for comparison from my collection.

Beautiful!!!