Please help me with translation

wolviex · 10th February 2006, 01:36 PM

Dear All!
Here are some pics of wootz blade, badly damaged because with pitholes of old and removed rust. It is broken twice: the tip is lost and the second break is build up with metal grip. On both sides you can find eastern inscriptions: one is going along back of the blade is quite long, that's why I had to cut the picture into the pieces, 1st one is near the hilt, the last one is near the lost tip. On the second side there are cartouches with inscriptions. If someone is able to read it and traslate, even partially, I would be obliged.
History: this blade is most probably one of the trophies from Vienna in 1683 or from Pereryta, todays Moldova, where Polish king and triuphator from Vienna, Jan III Sobieski, gained his last in his life victory on Turkish army.
Thank you in advance!

B.I · 10th February 2006, 06:45 PM

hi michal,
i cant help, but i went to lunch with a friend that studies islamic art and calligraphy (to a high degree). he said the inscription would take time (longer than we had) but he said the cartouches were written in a different hand to the rest of the inscription. the writing along the blade was genuine, but the cartouches and talismanic bedouh were nonesense.
cant guarantee this, as he didnt have it for long enough. also, given that its in a poland museum, and apparantely taken at the siege of vienna, i cant see there being time for another hand to add to the blade.
he did seem sure the script was different. how long has the museum had the sword?

wolviex · 10th February 2006, 09:13 PM

Hi Brian!
Thank you for your efforts. I'm not surprise that cartouches were made with different hand. That what you can't see are other gold and silver incrustations: the bust of king Jan III Sobieski, date 1692, flags, mace, sabre - I believe symbols of Turkish trophies. The date could be wrongly remembered date of Pereryta battle or it's just without sense, or maybe it was somehow important for the owner. There is also silver Polish Eagle, so the sabre was replenished few times in different periods.
This example is in museum from 1903, before it was in one of the most famous Krakow's family collection. We don't know if it was purchased by this colector from someone or was it drop from his ancestors - two of them fought in Vienna in 1683.

wolviex · 2nd March 2006, 06:02 PM

*bump* ?

bj211 · 29th March 2006, 05:19 PM

Dear wolviex,

This is a beautiful piece, and to be honest, I saw it before,
This is written in Persian language, which unfortunately I can’t read.
But because it uses the same letters as Arabic, I managed to figure out one clear word in there Which is ShamShiri.

Henk · 29th March 2006, 08:05 PM

I'm very happy to see that bj211 joined the forum. Your knowledge of the arab language and your skill to identify the surrounding languages is very helpful for all of us.
Some time ago i posted pictures of a sword I picked up. The only comment was that it was a yathagan blade. Identified as a yathagan I asumed the writing on it could be ottoman. I asked somebody here in Holland who can read the old ottoman writing but she told me that she didn't recognized the writing as ottoman. She guessed the writing could be from India or Pakistan.
I attach the pictures again and I hope someone can tell me what it is and what kind of writing this is.

bj211 · 30th March 2006, 04:16 AM

dear Henk

bj211 · 30th March 2006, 04:23 AM

dear Henk

Henk · 30th March 2006, 12:44 PM

bj211,

First I wish to join into the remarks of the other members in the thread of Micheal's pedang. Your contributions to this forum gives another dimension to our hobby. I understand that the pictures are not clear enough. Besides that the blade is very pitted through rust.
I tried to write down the writing on a sheeth of paper and made two pictures of it so I gues one picture is upside down. I just coppied the writing on the paper with the sword in front of me.
Please would you be so kind to take another look at it? I would really apreciate it.

Thanks in advance, Henk

wolviex · 30th March 2006, 01:06 PM

DEAR BJ!
Many many thanks for your effort. Even small information could be helpful.
"SHAMSHIRI" - is it the same what SHAMSHIR is? Any thoughts?

All the Best!

bj211 · 30th March 2006, 03:20 PM

Dear Henk,

I took a good look at the script you wrote, and at the pictures again.
Unfortunately I couldn’t figure it out. And believe me, it took me some time to do that

It’s just not adding up. Each word or phrase is messing something.

Some times,when looking at a script, I get lucky and solve the mystery, just by figuring one word of the whole thing, and from there I work till I get it all clear.
BUT … this one!!! Not even one word…….Yet

The thing that I see clearly and don’t even have a meaning for it “yet” is this combo of letters accruing many times in the script.

I’ll show this to a friend of mine, he’s got a good eye too for stuff like this. Maybe he can see something that I don’t. if he gets it, I’ll let you know for sure.

Sorry again, I wish that I could be more helpful my friend

bj211 · 30th March 2006, 03:39 PM

..Wolviex..

Yes. Indeed it’s the same thing.

SHAMSHIR is a noun
&
SHAMSHIRi is an adjective. (and it is used in a sentence to describe something)

A good example, I think, would be:
This guy is from YEMAN. So he must be a YEMANi

(Now this is all in Arabic of course)

hope this helps

bj

Henk · 30th March 2006, 05:16 PM

bj211,

Thank you for your effort. I hope your friend can figure something out.

I noticed the repeating letter combination also. Don't excuse yourself, because it isn't a clearly arab language aparantly. If the sword is a yagathan, the writing should find its history in Turkey or surrounding countries.

Thanks for your help so far, I really apreciate it.

10th February 2006, 01:36 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Please help me with translation Dear All! Here are some pics of wootz blade, badly damaged because with pitholes of old and removed rust. It is broken twice: the tip is lost and the second break is build up with metal grip. On both sides you can find eastern inscriptions: one is going along back of the blade is quite long, that's why I had to cut the picture into the pieces, 1st one is near the hilt, the last one is near the lost tip. On the second side there are cartouches with inscriptions. If someone is able to read it and traslate, even partially, I would be obliged. History: this blade is most probably one of the trophies from Vienna in 1683 or from Pereryta, todays Moldova, where Polish king and triuphator from Vienna, Jan III Sobieski, gained his last in his life victory on Turkish army. Thank you in advance! Attached Images

29th March 2006, 05:19 PM	#5
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Dear wolviex, This is a beautiful piece, and to be honest, I saw it before, This is written in Persian language, which unfortunately I can’t read. But because it uses the same letters as Arabic, I managed to figure out one clear word in there Which is ShamShiri. Attached Images

29th March 2006, 08:05 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I'm very happy to see that bj211 joined the forum. Your knowledge of the arab language and your skill to identify the surrounding languages is very helpful for all of us. Some time ago i posted pictures of a sword I picked up. The only comment was that it was a yathagan blade. Identified as a yathagan I asumed the writing on it could be ottoman. I asked somebody here in Holland who can read the old ottoman writing but she told me that she didn't recognized the writing as ottoman. She guessed the writing could be from India or Pakistan. I attach the pictures again and I hope someone can tell me what it is and what kind of writing this is. Attached Images

30th March 2006, 04:23 AM	#8
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	dear Henk Attached Images

30th March 2006, 12:44 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	bj211, First I wish to join into the remarks of the other members in the thread of Micheal's pedang. Your contributions to this forum gives another dimension to our hobby. I understand that the pictures are not clear enough. Besides that the blade is very pitted through rust. I tried to write down the writing on a sheeth of paper and made two pictures of it so I gues one picture is upside down. I just coppied the writing on the paper with the sword in front of me. Please would you be so kind to take another look at it? I would really apreciate it. Thanks in advance, Henk Attached Images

10th February 2006, 06:45 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i cant help, but i went to lunch with a friend that studies islamic art and calligraphy (to a high degree). he said the inscription would take time (longer than we had) but he said the cartouches were written in a different hand to the rest of the inscription. the writing along the blade was genuine, but the cartouches and talismanic bedouh were nonesense. cant guarantee this, as he didnt have it for long enough. also, given that its in a poland museum, and apparantely taken at the siege of vienna, i cant see there being time for another hand to add to the blade. he did seem sure the script was different. how long has the museum had the sword?

10th February 2006, 09:13 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Brian! Thank you for your efforts. I'm not surprise that cartouches were made with different hand. That what you can't see are other gold and silver incrustations: the bust of king Jan III Sobieski, date 1692, flags, mace, sabre - I believe symbols of Turkish trophies. The date could be wrongly remembered date of Pereryta battle or it's just without sense, or maybe it was somehow important for the owner. There is also silver Polish Eagle, so the sabre was replenished few times in different periods. This example is in museum from 1903, before it was in one of the most famous Krakow's family collection. We don't know if it was purchased by this colector from someone or was it drop from his ancestors - two of them fought in Vienna in 1683.

2nd March 2006, 06:02 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	bump ?

30th March 2006, 04:16 AM	#7
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	dear Henk

30th March 2006, 01:06 PM	#10
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	DEAR BJ! Many many thanks for your effort. Even small information could be helpful. "SHAMSHIRI" - is it the same what SHAMSHIR is? Any thoughts? All the Best!

30th March 2006, 03:20 PM	#11
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Dear Henk, I took a good look at the script you wrote, and at the pictures again. Unfortunately I couldn’t figure it out. And believe me, it took me some time to do that It’s just not adding up. Each word or phrase is messing something. Some times,when looking at a script, I get lucky and solve the mystery, just by figuring one word of the whole thing, and from there I work till I get it all clear. BUT … this one!!! Not even one word…….Yet The thing that I see clearly and don’t even have a meaning for it “yet” is this combo of letters accruing many times in the script. I’ll show this to a friend of mine, he’s got a good eye too for stuff like this. Maybe he can see something that I don’t. if he gets it, I’ll let you know for sure. Sorry again, I wish that I could be more helpful my friend Attached Images

30th March 2006, 03:39 PM	#12
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	..Wolviex.. Yes. Indeed it’s the same thing. SHAMSHIR is a noun & SHAMSHIRi is an adjective. (and it is used in a sentence to describe something) A good example, I think, would be: This guy is from YEMAN. So he must be a YEMANi (Now this is all in Arabic of course) hope this helps bj

30th March 2006, 05:16 PM	#13
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	bj211, Thank you for your effort. I hope your friend can figure something out. I noticed the repeating letter combination also. Don't excuse yourself, because it isn't a clearly arab language aparantly. If the sword is a yagathan, the writing should find its history in Turkey or surrounding countries. Thanks for your help so far, I really apreciate it.