Question about XVIII - XIX spontoon

Pahouin · 4th March 2020, 01:11 AM

Hello again
I saw this type of spontoon listed some times as german, another as italian and even british, usually as sergeants or official spontoon of XVIII or XIX century.

Do you know something about it?
Thanks in advance

fernando · 4th March 2020, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pahouin

...I saw this type of spontoon listed some times as german, another as italian and even british ...

What about French, like this one in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", by Neumann ?

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corrado26 · 4th March 2020, 04:10 PM

I think this is a piece of historism. Original blades can normally be unscrewed from the socket and at the socket there are missing the long feathers (?) to fix the socket at the pole. These have never been there as far as I can see
corrado26

fernando · 4th March 2020, 05:12 PM

Spontoons are not battle weapons, Udo. Most of them don't have langets, but a little hole to fix them to the pole with a screw or a pin. And i suspect some don't even have such fixation, only a tight introduction; not sure.
You may have a look to Newmann's.

corrado26 · 4th March 2020, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Spontoons are not battle weapons, Udo. Most of them don't have langets, but a little hole to fix them to the pole with a screw or a pin. And i suspect some don't even have such fixation, only a tight introduction; not sure.
You may have a look to Newmann's.

I cannot believe this. Look at the fotos of some German spontoons, all with langets and they have been primarily a rank sign of seargents and secondly made for battle - at least in Germany.
corrado26

fernando · 4th March 2020, 06:38 PM

Thank you for your diplomatic candidness, Udo; feel free to doubt my words. Do i notice that some examles that you show are partisans ?
Well, even partisans don't have side straps (langets) some times; i have a beautiful Swedish example only held to the pole with a pin.
As i firsty asked; do you have Neumanns's work ? As i believe you are (much) younger than me, with your eyes you may better see a dozen non strapped examples, including a German one.

.

corrado26 · 4th March 2020, 07:28 PM

It is very nice that you think that I am much younger than you, but I'll get 76 years old this year and many years of this time I spent in a higher position in one of Germany's military museums. So I know lots of partisans and spontoons and all of them in our house had langets. They have been made for nothing else than battle. The ones without langets are mostly pieces made for representation purposes. As you can see from the two fotos attached, all spontoons except one have langets.
As the blade in question has no monogram or something else what could help to identify it , it was certainly not made for representation and over that and without langets certainly not made for battle. That was the reason why I said that I think it is a piece of historism. But I am not the pope of polearms and maybe I am completely wrong.....................

kronckew · 4th March 2020, 08:28 PM

My 18c British Colour Sergeant's Halberd also has languets, and the spear point unscrews. And it's quite sharp too, axe, spear and inside the curve of the hook.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=halberd

fernando · 4th March 2020, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

It is very nice that you think that I am much younger than you, but I'll get 76 years old this year...

Amazing, Udo; by the way you sound, i thought you were infinitely younger than that

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

... They have been made for nothing else than battle.

Here is something i disagree with ... if you don't mind me saying so; according to what i read .. and see, these fancy sergeant insignia polearms are hardly combat weapons.
But i am no Popist either

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corrado26 · 5th March 2020, 08:02 AM

In German armies the spontoons have been arms and rank sign for infantry sergeants. Spontoons have not been arms to fight with but they have been tools to proof the state of the bearer and so to demonstrate orderpower against their inferior men during a battle. It was over that a beloved tool to force unwilling men to advance against the enemy. All of these spontoons had langets! These items are totally differentt o spontoons or partisans in use with life guards or ceremonial purposes.
But as I said before, I am no specialist in polearms etc., the field of my main interest during the last 60 years has been and still is the history of military firearms during the muzzleloader aera and this is quite another thing.
corrado26

fernando · 5th March 2020, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

In German armies the spontoons have been arms and rank sign for infantry sergeants. Spontoons have not been arms to fight with but they have been tools to proof the state of the bearer and so to demonstrate orderpower against their inferior men during a battle. It was over that a beloved tool to force unwilling men to advance against the enemy ...

That is also what i have learnt, Udo. The requirement for side straps and blade decoration is another chapter.

corrado26 · 5th March 2020, 11:27 AM

Last question: Who of us two is the elder one?

fernando · 5th March 2020, 03:35 PM

You just have to check my profile (UserCP); i am pharaonic ... old enough to be your father

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4th March 2020, 01:11 AM	#1
Pahouin Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 14	Question about XVIII - XIX spontoon Hello again I saw this type of spontoon listed some times as german, another as italian and even british, usually as sergeants or official spontoon of XVIII or XIX century. Do you know something about it? Thanks in advance Attached Images

4th March 2020, 06:38 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your diplomatic candidness, Udo; feel free to doubt my words. Do i notice that some examles that you show are partisans ? Well, even partisans don't have side straps (langets) some times; i have a beautiful Swedish example only held to the pole with a pin. As i firsty asked; do you have Neumanns's work ? As i believe you are (much) younger than me, with your eyes you may better see a dozen non strapped examples, including a German one. . Attached Images

4th March 2020, 07:28 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	It is very nice that you think that I am much younger than you, but I'll get 76 years old this year and many years of this time I spent in a higher position in one of Germany's military museums. So I know lots of partisans and spontoons and all of them in our house had langets. They have been made for nothing else than battle. The ones without langets are mostly pieces made for representation purposes. As you can see from the two fotos attached, all spontoons except one have langets. As the blade in question has no monogram or something else what could help to identify it , it was certainly not made for representation and over that and without langets certainly not made for battle. That was the reason why I said that I think it is a piece of historism. But I am not the pope of polearms and maybe I am completely wrong..................... Attached Images

4th March 2020, 08:28 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	My 18c British Colour Sergeant's Halberd also has languets, and the spear point unscrews. And it's quite sharp too, axe, spear and inside the curve of the hook. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=halberd Attached Images

4th March 2020, 04:10 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	I think this is a piece of historism. Original blades can normally be unscrewed from the socket and at the socket there are missing the long feathers (?) to fix the socket at the pole. These have never been there as far as I can see corrado26

4th March 2020, 05:12 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Spontoons are not battle weapons, Udo. Most of them don't have langets, but a little hole to fix them to the pole with a screw or a pin. And i suspect some don't even have such fixation, only a tight introduction; not sure. You may have a look to Newmann's.

5th March 2020, 08:02 AM	#10
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	In German armies the spontoons have been arms and rank sign for infantry sergeants. Spontoons have not been arms to fight with but they have been tools to proof the state of the bearer and so to demonstrate orderpower against their inferior men during a battle. It was over that a beloved tool to force unwilling men to advance against the enemy. All of these spontoons had langets! These items are totally differentt o spontoons or partisans in use with life guards or ceremonial purposes. But as I said before, I am no specialist in polearms etc., the field of my main interest during the last 60 years has been and still is the history of military firearms during the muzzleloader aera and this is quite another thing. corrado26

5th March 2020, 11:27 AM	#12
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Last question: Who of us two is the elder one?

5th March 2020, 03:35 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You just have to check my profile (UserCP); i am pharaonic ... old enough to be your father .