NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE from the 17 TH Century URGENT NEED HELP !

[Cerjak]

Hi everybody,
I urgently need an opinion on this NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE said to be from the 17 TH Century, as i don’t have any knowledge in this kind of helmets. I ‘m sorry for the bad quality of the pictures, they were taken with my cellphone. I will be very happy to have some opinions and to be informed in the case that this helmet has something suspicious, for example the Nasal protection or Ear plates ….
I hope I will have some advice about this helmet.
Regards

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

more pics

[Matchlock]

Hi Cerjak,

Sorry to see that nobody has responded so far.

My expertise in parts of armor is very limited, and my expert friend whom I linked with your query has not yet replied.
Telling from the surface condition and the visible criteria of manufacture, like the patina, washers etc., I would not doubt that this is an original Zischagge from the second half of the 17th c., probably of Polish origin.
Sadly I cannot answer your detailed questions with sufficient authority but I noticed a similar piece ending on ebay a couple of days ago, which my friend thought was a fake; I differed from his opinion and it fetched 1,100 euro.

Hoping this will be of at least some help,
best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

One more.

[Matchlock]

Hi Cerjak,

Finally my friend contacted me. He, too, thinks that the Zischagge is completely genuine but might be a bit younger (later) than I thought it was, probably from the period of Prince Eugen, ca. 1700, and most probably from the Balkan region.

Best,
Michael

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Cerjak,

Finally my friend contacted me. He, too, thinks that the Zischagge is completely genuine but might be a bit younger (later) than I thought it was, probably from the period of Prince Eugen, ca. 1700, and most probably from the Balkan region.

Best,
Michael

Michael
Many thanks for those information’s.
I could see some differences on the fabrication between those 2 helmets. This one from your post don't have nasal protection and the Ear plates seems to not fit with the helmet. The laminated tail over the back of the neck is build with 3 plates of metal only.
and fabrication process is hidden by the black paint ,it seems that a double layer of metal was used to made the bowl but we can't see from the inside the rivets.
I would like to say more but with my Basic English it is difficult to translate my full opinion.
I will have a look too in this fantastic book from George Cameron Stone "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times "
On it there is so many photos (only small size and black& white) but it is a so exhaustive book for the period!

Kind regards
CERJAK

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Michael,
Any ideas on this one of mine, I long thought it was a Victorian creation but one never knows.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Cerjak, please excuse my hi-jacking of your thread but as it is in the same vein I hoped you wouldn't mind.

[Matchlock]

Hi Norman,

As far as I can tell from your images, the one you posted is definitely a Victorian (Historismus, 19th century) copy. It shows no traces of hammering, and the rivets do not have the raw but useful washers, let alone does the surface have the rich rust patina above an old layer of black arsenal lacquer.

And: sometimes one does know ... and can tell.

Best,
Michael

[SERGIU]

Cerjak, the lobster tail helmet expert was right, it really is an austrian helmet from around 1700, prince Eugene s army fought major battles in the Banat region taking Timisoara from the turks in 1716, and in our museum helmets identical to yours are clasified as austrian, army of Eugene of Savoy .

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Sergiu,

Your confirmation has been passed to 'my' expert!

Best,
Michael

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by SERGIU

Cerjak, the lobster tail helmet expert was right, it really is an austrian helmet from around 1700, prince Eugene s army fought major battles in the Banat region taking Timisoara from the turks in 1716, and in our museum helmets identical to yours are clasified as austrian, army of Eugene of Savoy .

Dear Sergiu

I just add some better pics ,the last one was not so good.
You could see that there is some rest of black paint ,Do you thing that it could be the original colour ?
I will be great if you could post some pictures from similar helmet from your museum.
Kind regards

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

MORE PICS

[Matchlock]

Hi Cerjak,

I noticed that black varnish already in your first images. It is characteristic old arsenal paint used on many weapons, including firerarms, and items of ironwork as a means of conservation. It should in any case be preserved!

Best,
Michael

[Cerjak]

NEW PICS

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Cerjak,

I noticed that black varnish already in your first images. It is characteristic old arsenal paint used on many weapons, including firerarms, and items of ironwork as a means of conservation. It should in any case be preserved!

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael
Do you have any idea how I could preserve this paint and in the same time stop the rust .
I only want to preserve this helmet exactly as it is untouched.

Regards

Jean-Luc

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Luc,

My recipe proven best for over 30 years - and many hundreds of years of arsenal care before! - is, as always, olive oil.
Not only will it stabilize and preserve the remains of lacquer, it will at the same time intensify the original surface color!

Best,
Michael

[Cerjak]

Thank you Michael I will try.

[SERGIU]

cerjak, I just read the new posts on this thread and it s sunday, but on one working day next week I ll make some photos of our lobster tail helmets and post them here. Black paint was indeed used on our metal items as way of preservation in the past. Currently we use mainly Ballistol weapons oil but olive oil will be tested too starting from now

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by SERGIU

cerjak, I just read the new posts on this thread and it s sunday, but on one working day next week I ll make some photos of our lobster tail helmets and post them here. Black paint was indeed used on our metal items as way of preservation in the past. Currently we use mainly Ballistol weapons oil but olive oil will be tested too starting from now

Thank you Sergiu
It will be great to see your photos.
Have a nice weekend
Cerjak

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Thank you Michael I will try.

Well,

I feel like I should have added one important fact, so here it is:

You might as well not do anything about it and just leave the original surface alone. After all, your fine zischagge has come down to you over about three centuries and it is still there - so don't worry: it won't dissolve or even alter while being being with you.
If there is one thing about conservation of virtually 'untouched' surfaces that I have learned over the decades, it is: just leave them the way they are!!!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

For results please see right bottom corner of description scans.

m

[Cerjak]

Michael,



Thank you to have find the time to send those other Zischagge photos.
Now I can see that my Zischagge is in fantastic condition and also much more elaborate helmet.( specially the The laminated tail &eyeshade )
Of course I have paid much more for it but don't have any regrets.
I will follow your advice and he will have this week end his olive oil and nothing else !
You should with your experience write a thread about the Gun & armour preservation and cleaning it will be useful for a lot of collector .
You can imagine how many antique guns I have already seen polish like brand new :Many people using "dremel" & acid are killing patina and marks
Kind regards
CERJAK

[Matchlock]

Hi Cerjak,


Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth on preserving patina and causing as little surface change as possible!

I, too, have seen too many completely overcleaned and brutally ruined pieces and have often uttered my opinion here on the forum. There are different opinions on this matter however, which we all have to accept in the end.

And: as long as museum people keep killing patina and presenting surfaces shining 'as new' - which those items mostly had not when they were actually new hundreds of years ago! - the collector's view will be spoiled and he too will tend to follow the 'example' given by so-called 'authorities' and will kill the surfaces of his weapons as well ...

Finally, you are absolutely correct about the fact that the solid quality of your Zischagge cannot be compared with the lesser items I posted, so you really should not worry about paying more!


Thanks again for getting the point,
and best,
Michael

[Cerjak]

I have a question about the standard weight from those helmets .
I found some descriptions from similar ZISCHAGGE and was confused to see that the weight was around 1800 gr / 4 lbs but the weight from my helmet is around 4000gr/ 9 lbs .
So two times more !
I hope that somebody could explain me why there is a so big difference.

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

[QUOTE=Matchlock]Hi Cerjak,


Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth on preserving patina and causing as little surface change as possible!

I, too, have seen too many completely overcleaned and brutally ruined pieces and have often uttered my opinion here on the forum. There are different opinions on this matter however, which we all have to accept in the end.

And: as long as museum people keep killing patina and presenting surfaces shining 'as new' - which those items mostly had not when they were actually new hundreds of years ago! - the collector's view will be spoiled and he too will tend to follow the 'example' given by so-called 'authorities' and will kill the surfaces of his weapons as well ...

Finally, you are absolutely correct about the fact that the solid quality of your Zischagge cannot be compared with the lesser items I posted, so you really should not worry about paying more!


Dear Michael

Once again could you give me your opinion for this helmet said to be a German Helmet From early 17 th century.
In my eyes it seems to be a nice one but I always afraid to do a mistake.
I hope you could help me ...
Best regards
Cerjak

[Matchlock]

Hi Cerjak,


Thank your for trusting me that much but as I have stated various times, pieces of armor are not exactly my field of expertise.

Telling by your photos though, I would say the helmet looks very good and original; it reminds me of similar helmets which are part of late field armor (Feldkürisse), Thirty Years War, in the famous Graz Armory; many of them were supplied by a Styrian maker in 1635, so a date of ca. 1620-30 seems quite right for your helmet.

It also seems close in style to a Savoy helmet.


I do hope this will help a bit.


Best,
Michael

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Czerjak,


Thank your for trusting me that much but as I have stated various times, pieces of armor are not exactly my field of expertise.

Telling by your photos though, I would say the helmet looks very good and original; it reminds me of similar helmets which are part of late field armor (Feldkürisse), Thirty Years War, in the famous Graz Armory; many of them were supplied by a Styrian maker in 1635, so a date of ca. 1620-30 seems quite right for your helmet.

I do hope this will help a bit.


Best,
Michael

Michael

Of course your opinion will help me ! and it is very nice to receive it so quickly I was lucky.
Thank you to be so active in this forum

cerjak

[Matchlock]

Thanks again, Cerjak,

I add two scans from the basic book Europäische Helme (European Helmets) by Heinrich Müller and Fritz Kunter, Berlin, 1984; the first scan depicts so-called Mantelhelme of the Thirty Years War period. I could not find the English equivalent of that term.

As you are interested in helmets you should consider purchasing it.


Best,
m

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Thanks again, Cerjak,

I add two scans from the basic book Europäische Helme (European Helmets) by Heinrich Müller and Fritz Kunter, Berlin, 1984; the first scan depicts so-called Mantelhelme of the Thirty Years War period. I could not find the English equivalent of that term.

As you are interested in helmets you should consider purchasing it.


Best,
m

Michael

Always good advice I must buy it



Cerjak

[Matchlock]

It is offered extremely cheap here:

http://www.booklooker.de/B%FCcher/M%...2a4071dde478bc



I also found this Wikipedia article on zishagges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capeline

They are considered to have replaced the older type of Mantelheme in the course of the Thirty Years War.

m