Your thoughts on this rapier?

[werecow]

I bid on this rapier today. Alas, I did not win it (probably better for my wallet as I'm still "recovering" from the last sword I bought), but I am nevertheless curious about your comments as I am trying to learn more about rapiers in general.

It was sold as German, circa 1730 but that seems wrong to me (I would have guessed 16th century). The length of the grip gave me some pause as it seems relatively long for a rapier (although I find the proportions aesthetically very pleasing). The markings seem to say "Pedro Dei" or "Pedro Del" on the one side but I'm having a hard time deciphering the other side. Another thing I thought was interesting is the pommel decorations. It looks like a green man face? I've seen a lot of those on mortuary hilt sword guards but not many on rapiers.

[Merenti]

To me this is a nice authentic rapier circa 1630-1650. Iron cutting was popularly done in Italy (Milan). I saw it too, but it's in poor condition.

[fernando]

Why not Spanish; by one of those Toledo smiths ... like PEDRO DEL MONTE .

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Merenti

To me this is a nice authentic rapier circa 1630-1650. Iron cutting was popularly done in Italy (Milan). I saw it too, but it's in poor condition.

True, but the condition isn't terrible, and "a bit rusty" is probably the only kind I can afford for this kind of sword. And apparently not even that (I was not all that close)! }|:oP

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not Spanish; by one of those Toledo smiths ... like PEDRO DEL MONTE :o.

I thought it might be a reference to Pedro del Monte or even Pedro Hernandez, but there is no last name it seems, or at least I can't make it out. I can't make heads or tails of the other side. Those oval (eye?) shapes do look a little more familiar although I can't remember where I've seen them before - the closest ones were Italian marks I found on a thread on this forum (which I can't seem to find any more now), but they have another line of "lashes" surrounding the "eye".

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

... I thought it might be a reference to Pedro del Monte or even Pedro Hernandez, but there is no last name it seems,

There should be some written stuff in both sides ... as usual. Something like PEDRO DEL in one side and MONTE EN TOLEDO in the other.
But i am only guessing on the name, of course.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

There should be some written stuff in both sides ... as usual. Something like PEDRO DEL in one side and MONTE EN TOLEDO in the other.
But i am only guessing on the name, of course.

There is writing there (3rd picture) but all I've been able to make out is G R ET (or I suppose with a bit of imagination it could be a degraded "FECIT") and I'm not really sure about any of it.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

There should be some written stuff in both sides ... as usual. Something like PEDRO DEL in one side and MONTE EN TOLEDO in the other.
But i am only guessing on the name, of course.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

True, but the condition isn't terrible, and "a bit rusty" is probably the only kind I can afford for this kind of sword. And apparently not even that (I was not all that close)! }|P

I agree, the condition isn't all that bad, it would have benefited from a reasonable amount of cleaning and ended up looking a lot better than when it left the auction house. The trick is to stop the active corrosion and remove accumulated dirt, while retaining as much of the existing patina as you can. A slow and conservative approach is far better than fast and aggressive, a lot of collectors use inappropriate methods and ruin pieces with overcleaning.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

There is writing there (3rd picture) but all I've been able to make out is G R ET (or I suppose with a bit of imagination it could be a degraded "FECIT") and I'm not really sure about any of it.

So ... looking better at the 3rd picture, it should read GARAETA, a Basque smith name mispelled by Palomares as Lagaretea.
"Este hecho se produce especialmente en el caso de los de raiz vasca, como Pedro Lagaretea por Pedro de Garaeta"
He is reported to have worked both in Bilbao and Toledo.


.

[cornelistromp]

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

best,
jasper

[Merenti]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

best,
jasper

what is the name of the book?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... looking better at the 3rd picture, it should read GARAETA, a Basque smith name mispelled by Palomares as Lagaretea.
"Este hecho se produce especialmente en el caso de los de raiz vasca, como Pedro Lagaretea por Pedro de Garaeta"
He is reported to have worked both in Bilbao and Toledo.

Ah, so there's a third Pedro! The plot thickens. I had heard of the other two before but not this one.

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

Ha! I knew you were Dutch from lurking on the forums for a while, but I had no idea you were from Leiden. Small world/country!

Thanks for the reference, that's a pretty close one, as is the one in the Norman book. Which book is the one you posted the screenshot from?

But re: Shipping; alas, as noted I did not get the sword, I just wanted to see if I was on the right track with my thinking and to learn a bit more about the engravings / markings. The world of renaissance rapier collecting is a bit daunting for a novice collector so it's good to be able to check whether I'm not just chasing obvious fakes (I half-expected someone here to raise their hand and say something to the effect of "those proportions are completely wrong and it's an antiqued €25 Marto wallhanger from the early 2000s" ). At least this may give me a small amount of confidence the next time around.

[cornelistromp]

@werecow
Il museo Stibbert -Boccia book 3 **

@ merenti
the rapier and small-sword 1460-1820-Norman and Barne

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

... Ah, so there's a third Pedro! The plot thickens. I had heard of the other two before but not this one ...

There were many sword smiths called Pedro in Toledo during that period, werecow .


.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

There were many sword smiths called Pedro in Toledo during that period, werecow .

And apparently even more Franciscos! I feel like there is a Renaissance sword-making comedy sketch in there somewhere.

[Merenti]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@werecow
Il museo Stibbert -Boccia book 3 **

@ merenti
the rapier and small-sword 1460-1820-Norman and Barne

Thank u 👍🏻

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

best,
jasper

It is indeed mid 16th c and very rare as it is, its even more rare to find it in a condition like this uncleaned and unmolested . For rapiers or swords this rare the condition matters less than items you can find in better condition.
I mean if one would decide to wait untill a better one come's along that is also for sale and all original like this one , it could be you would need to wait longer than the swords age itself.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

After some carefull cleaning I can confirm it is indeed PEDRO DEL GARAETA.
The condition is good enough for me condsidering its age.
More important its complete not missing anything and the blade is still at full lenght, including original gripwire. There are not that many of these around either.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

Very nice piece ulfberth. Congrats! I should've known someone from this message board got it. Very jealous.

Is that indeed a green man on the pommel?

[ulfberth]

Thank you for you'r kind words Werecow !
Yes I believe it is " the green man" although a bit with a brownish black tan.
Now that you mention it, I have not seen this type of pommel with the green man on it before. Although it's not an uncommon type of decoration, it appears hilts to and suits of armour from the same period.
I did no know there was a collector who collects rapier this period in Leiden either. Here is a better picture taken in daylight, im not a good photographer certainly not with an 80 dollar cam.
Kind regards
Ulfbert

[Merenti]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

After some carefull cleaning I can confirm it is indeed PEDRO DEL GARAETA.
The condition is good enough for me condsidering its age.
More important its complete not missing anything and the blade is still at full lenght, including original gripwire. There are not that many of these around either.
kind regards
Ulfberth

hey Dirk, congratulations on the beautiful rapier. From this point of view it is really a beautiful old and rare piece.

Markus

[CSinTX]

Congrats Dirk!

You might try outside pictures. In the shade if the sun is super bright. I'll be happy to edit your pics for you also.

Can someone educate us on the history of "the green man"?

[toaster5sqn]

The Green Man is a human face, or sometimes a full figure with leaves for hair and often wrapped in vines and foliage. It's very common in church carvings from the middle ages and a Victorian era author used it as the basis for a theory of hidden pagan cults hiding within the medieval church. The truth is we have no idea what it symbolized to people of that time.

Robert

[werecow]

By sheer coincidence I was watching this youtube clip and noticed a rapier with an almost identical hilt in the display case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjDVE06x_A0

[ulfberth]

yes it is the same type of rapier and of the same period in the Metropolitan Museum.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Thank you for you'r kind words Werecow !
Yes I believe it is " the green man" although a bit with a brownish black tan.

All my plants eventually do that, so it's fitting.

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Now that you mention it, I have not seen this type of pommel with the green man on it before. Although it's not an uncommon type of decoration, it appears hilts to and suits of armour from the same period.

Yeah, I've mainly seen it on mortuary hilt guards.

Originally Posted by ulfberth

I did no know there was a collector who collects rapier this period in Leiden either. Here is a better picture taken in daylight, im not a good photographer certainly not with an 80 dollar cam.
Kind regards
Ulfbert

And as it turns out we already met. Microscopic world!

[Merenti]

hey Dirk, congratulations on the beautiful rapier. From this point of view it is really a beautiful old and rare piece.

Markus

[AHorsa]

What a beauty and very nice cleaned!! Congrats also from my site!!

Kind regards
Andreas

[cornelistromp]

Congrats with this rare and beautiful rapier Dirk.

you're right, I don't actually collect rapiers but for this rare one I could make an exception.

after seeing your pictures, I regret not bidding further on this rapier.



best, Jasper

[ulfberth]

Casey , Werecow, Andreas, Markus, Jasper,
Thank you all for your kind words, I have learned that to older the items get, the more forgiving you need to be on condition. Looking back, I was too strict and not being realistic more than once concerning 16th c items, and i sold perfectly fine collection pieces because the condition was no good enough to my taste.
Now im older and a bit wiser and won't make that mistake again if i dont have to.
Kind regards
Ulfberth