new keris for comment

ferrylaki · 5th March 2007, 06:32 AM

I just got this keris. I need some information about dapur, pamor, etc...
any information will be just fine,
thank you.....

drdavid · 5th March 2007, 10:49 AM

Hi Ferrylaki, what is the length here?
drd

ferrylaki · 5th March 2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

Hi Ferrylaki, what is the length here?
drd

approx 38 cm over all.

Marcokeris · 5th March 2007, 12:46 PM

A keris from Yogya
In my opinion gayaman is cendana, ukiran not possible to understand (mybe kemuning) but surely a nice old patina.
Pamor: simple beras wutah while gonyo is similar pajang style but more short

ferrylaki · 6th March 2007, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

A keris from Yogya
In my opinion gayaman is cendana, ukiran not possible to understand (mybe kemuning) but surely a nice old patina.
Pamor: simple beras wutah while gonyo is similar pajang style but more short

I got some information mentioning about the keris.
Pamor : wos wutah and kulit semangka ( different pamor for each side)
tangguh : jalak ngore, yogyakarta Hamengku buwono IX ( nom noman keris )
warangka : gayaman yogya( wood unknown) the wood is very smooth
but does not smell like cendana wangi.

but I find this nom noman keris from yogya is bigger and heavier than my other javanese keris, showing more active pamor and better iron. people siad jalak ngore is a rare tangguh, but my first collection come with 3 jalak ngore kerises with same pamor ( wos wutah and kulit semangka) . I've been trying to find good sample of keris with gold ornament/kinatah, but mostly I only find those in books ( ensiklopedia keris ) . I'll keep looking, any body have a kinatah keris?? any body?
Can we make our own kinatah keris?

I'm waiting for your opinion guys.....

David · 6th March 2007, 04:31 AM

Jalak ngore is not the tangguh of your keris, it is the dapor. Tangguh is a Javanese system of judging the era and area of origin that your keris comes from. Dapor is the form or profile that your keris displays based on the various features (ricikan) of the blade.
Kinatah is often added to a keris at a point later in the life of the blade. But when you ask can we make our own kinatah keris...well sure, you might be able to find someone you can commission to do this type of work, but this is not something that i would do. As interested in Javanese culture as i am i still am not culturally a part of it. IMO it would be inappropriate for me to commission someone to add kinatah to one of my keris. Even if you are Javanese adding gold to your keris might still not be appropriate. Gold is added to keris as a matter of cultural significance, not becuse you as a collector want a kinatah keris.
Actually i have seen may gold kinatah keris for sale both on websites and eBay. Most of them have been old keris that dealers have added gold on to increase their sales appeal or contempory keris made for the collectors market. If you are looking for the "real thing" it will no doubt be hard to find and costly. Anyone can add gold to a keris, but the real question is why?

David · 6th March 2007, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

but I find this nom noman keris from yogya is bigger and heavier than my other javanese keris, showing more active pamor and better iron. people siad jalak ngore is a rare tangguh, but my first collection come with 3 jalak ngore kerises with same pamor ( wos wutah and kulit semangka)

This may be because this is a relatively recent keris, perhaps newer than the other examples you have.

ferrylaki · 6th March 2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

This may be because this is a relatively recent keris, perhaps newer than the other examples you have.

Thank you very much fro the information.
I find my self make mistake mentioning dapur and tangguh , I really must learn more about the basic vocabulary.
this might be newer than my previous collection.
I mentioned kinatah keris in my threat because I found many keris sellers show to me their kinatah keris. some with old keris, and some new keris. some keris even have gold and diamond together, more expensive ofcourse.

So I wonder why would we add kinatah to our keris, is it for the great look or raising the price. as I know, the old king of mataram gave gold kinatah singo barong to every soldier when they concour other kingdom...that is old story about kinatah.

I like my new keris for its pamor...very bright and active. eye catching .
my other kerises do not show such pamor, maybe I should have them warangan. but I really afraid with the poison contain in warangan(arsenic) that been used in java. maybe I should just clean the rust in my keris with out warangan.

Alam Shah · 6th March 2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

... people siad jalak ngore is a rare tangguh, but my first collection come with 3 jalak ngore kerises with same pamor ( wos wutah and kulit semangka) . I've been trying to find good sample of keris with gold ornament/kinatah, but mostly I only find those in books ( ensiklopedia keris ) . I'll keep looking, any body have a kinatah keris?? any body?
Can we make our own kinatah keris?

I'm waiting for your opinion guys.....

Like David said, jalak ngore is a name of a dapur. If you're looking for real pieces with gold kinatah, do note that the prices could go up to the price of a car or house.

Keris with kinatah are conferred similar to medals of honour in today's standards. It's a form of reward, for their warriors, in the olden days.

Alam Shah · 6th March 2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

... maybe I should have them warangan. but I really afraid with the poison contain in warangan(arsenic) that been used in java. maybe I should just clean the rust in my keris with out warangan.

Lol, I've cleaned plenty of blades, without any problem. With proper care and common-sense approach, there's nothing to be afraid of.

If you are still afraid, you could get someone to do it for you.

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2007, 06:45 AM

Ferry, do you think you might be able to give us a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak? Thanks.

ferrylaki · 6th March 2007, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, do you think you might be able to give us a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak? Thanks.

good day Alan,
I'll try to post pic of ganja tomorrow. do you mean I should take the picture from the bottom of ganja, or the upper part of the ganja?

there is a particular pattern of pamor on the ganja, or maybe you like to see the simetry of the ganja?

do this picture help your question?

Alam Shah · 6th March 2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

...a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak?

Ferrylaki,
Have a look at the diagram from Alan's site. There is one which is labelled sirah cecak. From that angle, top of the blade, (best with the hilt removed).

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2007, 10:53 PM

G'day Ferry,

as Shahrial explained, looking down onto the top of the gonjo.

Ferry, I do not know who told you that the pamor on one side of the blade was ngulit semangka, and on the other wos wutah, but I don't think I can agree with that.

These two pamors are essentially the same:- they are made in the same way, and it is only a matter of degree as to whether we call it ngulit semangka or wos wutah. It is possible that that even in the same billet that was used for the pamor, the bands of contrasting material could be a bit wider , or a bit narrower at opposing ends of the billet, but when I look at your keris, I can see no material difference in the pamor on either side of the blade. I think I'd be inclined to designate this pamor as just wos wutuh.

Similarly, I am inclined to disagree with the HB classification.

I refuse to get involved a "tangguh battle", or even much discussion of classification, based on photos, no matter how good those photos are (and they are definitely good), but the features I can see in this blade certainly do not say "HB" to me, they something more like "Kajoran".

Additionally, proportion seems wrong for this type of blade; it would not surprise me if at some time in the past it had been shortened.

Regarding the matter of staining your blades, speak to me in Palur.

David · 6th March 2007, 11:35 PM

I also noticed the shortened proportion in these photgraphs, but it is possible that this might be a trick of photographic perspective since it seems that you may not be directly over the top of this blade when shooting down on it. A picture is worth a thousand words, but sometimes they can be deceptive.

Alan, could you explain "Kajoran" a bit more as it is not a tangguh designation i am familar with.

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2007, 01:50 AM

Yeah, could easy be David, but Ferry told us that the keris is 38cm overall, take away the handle and mendak and you're looking at about 11.5 inches, which is fairly short---still within the bounds of a normal keris, but with a wide sorsoran like that, and a nice substantial blade, to my eye, the proportion is all wrong.

The Lords of Kajoran were a powerful family in Central Jawa between the time of the end of Sultan Agung's rule, and the establishment of Kartosuro. Its just a tag that is put on blades with that generally Mataramish look, but with the wide, heavy ada-ada ---like a buffalo's back--- and that are attributed to that period.

Don't get too tied up in tangguh. Give 6 ahli keris a blade to classify and you'll likely get a dozen opinions UNLESS that blade is a top quality Kraton blade, when you will get just one opinion.

Why? Because everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything, and the system was not designed to do this.

ferrylaki · 7th March 2007, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Ferrylaki,
Have a look at the diagram from Alan's site. There is one which is labelled sirah cecak. From that angle, top of the blade, (best with the hilt removed).

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

I can't open the web you mentioned,
I try to get a shot under minimal lighting this morning, but the result a little bit disappointing. get a look....

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2007, 04:46 AM

Not quite what we need Ferry.The sirah cecak helps, and I'm guessing that there is a bit of width to the buntut urang, but here is an illustration that shows what we need.

In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know. Thanks.

ferrylaki · 7th March 2007, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

I can't open the web you mentioned,
I try to get a shot under minimal lighting this morning, but the result a little bit disappointing. get a look....

more pics. this is a different keris. dapur jalak ngore.
lenght : 42 cm AOL from pesi to tip point.
pamor wos wutah.

the different with my new jalak ngore keris is at its ada ada,there seem like a line , like thin fuller ( narrow fuller )
the keris seem bigger and heavier.

ferrylaki · 7th March 2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Not quite what we need Ferry.The sirah cecak helps, and I'm guessing that there is a bit of width to the buntut urang, but here is an illustration that shows what we need.

In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know. Thanks.

sorry about the pictures,
I was in hurry catching the morning train.
I looked at the diagram and find the keris has exactly the same diagram.
there is a small crack/split on the tip of buntut urang.

my prefious jalak ngore has better buntut urang ( not crack)but the grenengan seem to be less better.
"In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know"
what do you mean?

best regards,
ferry

5th March 2007, 06:32 AM	#1
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	new keris for comment I just got this keris. I need some information about dapur, pamor, etc... any information will be just fine, thank you..... Attached Images

7th March 2007, 04:46 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Not quite what we need Ferry.The sirah cecak helps, and I'm guessing that there is a bit of width to the buntut urang, but here is an illustration that shows what we need. In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know. Thanks. Attached Images

5th March 2007, 10:49 AM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Ferrylaki, what is the length here? drd

5th March 2007, 12:46 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	A keris from Yogya In my opinion gayaman is cendana, ukiran not possible to understand (mybe kemuning) but surely a nice old patina. Pamor: simple beras wutah while gonyo is similar pajang style but more short

6th March 2007, 04:31 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Jalak ngore is not the tangguh of your keris, it is the dapor. Tangguh is a Javanese system of judging the era and area of origin that your keris comes from. Dapor is the form or profile that your keris displays based on the various features (ricikan) of the blade. Kinatah is often added to a keris at a point later in the life of the blade. But when you ask can we make our own kinatah keris...well sure, you might be able to find someone you can commission to do this type of work, but this is not something that i would do. As interested in Javanese culture as i am i still am not culturally a part of it. IMO it would be inappropriate for me to commission someone to add kinatah to one of my keris. Even if you are Javanese adding gold to your keris might still not be appropriate. Gold is added to keris as a matter of cultural significance, not becuse you as a collector want a kinatah keris. Actually i have seen may gold kinatah keris for sale both on websites and eBay. Most of them have been old keris that dealers have added gold on to increase their sales appeal or contempory keris made for the collectors market. If you are looking for the "real thing" it will no doubt be hard to find and costly. Anyone can add gold to a keris, but the real question is why?

6th March 2007, 06:45 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Ferry, do you think you might be able to give us a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak? Thanks.

6th March 2007, 10:53 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	G'day Ferry, as Shahrial explained, looking down onto the top of the gonjo. Ferry, I do not know who told you that the pamor on one side of the blade was ngulit semangka, and on the other wos wutah, but I don't think I can agree with that. These two pamors are essentially the same:- they are made in the same way, and it is only a matter of degree as to whether we call it ngulit semangka or wos wutah. It is possible that that even in the same billet that was used for the pamor, the bands of contrasting material could be a bit wider , or a bit narrower at opposing ends of the billet, but when I look at your keris, I can see no material difference in the pamor on either side of the blade. I think I'd be inclined to designate this pamor as just wos wutuh. Similarly, I am inclined to disagree with the HB classification. I refuse to get involved a "tangguh battle", or even much discussion of classification, based on photos, no matter how good those photos are (and they are definitely good), but the features I can see in this blade certainly do not say "HB" to me, they something more like "Kajoran". Additionally, proportion seems wrong for this type of blade; it would not surprise me if at some time in the past it had been shortened. Regarding the matter of staining your blades, speak to me in Palur.

6th March 2007, 11:35 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	I also noticed the shortened proportion in these photgraphs, but it is possible that this might be a trick of photographic perspective since it seems that you may not be directly over the top of this blade when shooting down on it. A picture is worth a thousand words, but sometimes they can be deceptive. Alan, could you explain "Kajoran" a bit more as it is not a tangguh designation i am familar with.

7th March 2007, 01:50 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Yeah, could easy be David, but Ferry told us that the keris is 38cm overall, take away the handle and mendak and you're looking at about 11.5 inches, which is fairly short---still within the bounds of a normal keris, but with a wide sorsoran like that, and a nice substantial blade, to my eye, the proportion is all wrong. The Lords of Kajoran were a powerful family in Central Jawa between the time of the end of Sultan Agung's rule, and the establishment of Kartosuro. Its just a tag that is put on blades with that generally Mataramish look, but with the wide, heavy ada-ada ---like a buffalo's back--- and that are attributed to that period. Don't get too tied up in tangguh. Give 6 ahli keris a blade to classify and you'll likely get a dozen opinions UNLESS that blade is a top quality Kraton blade, when you will get just one opinion. Why? Because everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything, and the system was not designed to do this.