Flintlock musket for Comment

Ivo · 10th June 2018, 09:32 AM

Hello, I recently bought this musket.
Elgood describes a similar as "Dalmatian" / page180 /
The form is identical to ,,Džeferdar "
There is the best barrel I've ever seen.
What is your opinion ?
Thank you.

Battara · 13th June 2018, 01:41 AM

I like the butt but I LOVE the barrel! Congratulations!

corrado26 · 13th June 2018, 09:55 AM

I think the eagle mark on the lockplate could be the sign of the Moskau Arsenal ca. 1770
corrado26

rickystl · 13th June 2018, 03:22 PM

Hi Ivo

WOW!! Nice find. Congratulations.

A very interesting musket. Would like to see more pics if you have a chance. Butt plate, left side of gun, wrist area, etc.

Yes, the butt stock is exactly like the so called Dzeferdar style muskets made at the many gun shops in the Balkans. The style of butt stock actually derives from Italian style long guns from the late 17th to early 18th Century. The lock has that Germanic style that was popular during the third and fourth quarters of the 18th Century, and appears to be a European export lock. Does not look like a locally made copy. And the barrel is really cool !!! Appears engraved/chiseled it's entire length.

Again, a really neat gun.

Rick

Kubur · 13th June 2018, 04:34 PM

Rick said everything...
I'm not surprised by the barrel, the barrels on these guns are always cool.
I'm more surprised by the lock... I would place your gun in the 18th c.

Ivo · 13th June 2018, 09:30 PM

Thank you !
Of course , I will do more pictures and upload them.
Yes - lock is not a local copy and is not replaced ...

Ivo · 14th June 2018, 02:22 PM

caliber - 19 mm

rickystl · 14th June 2018, 09:49 PM

Hi Ivo

Thanks so much for the additional photos. Some additional comments......

The decorative brass piece surrounding the breach plug tank was a common feature on many Ottoman long guns. And the zig-zag type engraving is very similar to many brass, ottoman barrel bands I've seen. So the gun could have been made for an Ottoman customer (?)
The engraving on the barrel looks fairly generic. So I don't really notice any paticular origin. However, the double bead from sight was a common feature on earlier Persian made barrels. So the barrel could be older than the rest of the gun.
The lock id definately of European origin. The tumbler and cover, and the overall build quality show this to me.
I see a couple of small holes, but it otherwise appears to have been made without a trigger guard. Or does it look like it is missing ?

Again, that's for posting the additional pics. Very nice find.

Rick

Ivo · 14th June 2018, 10:14 PM

Hi Rick ,

I think it was trigger guard, but she was missing a long time ago.
Besides the two holes is left no trace ....

Ivo

kahnjar1 · 15th June 2018, 07:53 AM

A beautiful gun Ivo. I can only echo the comments already placed here, but what about those indentations on the barrel surface? This type of indentation has been discussed elswhere in relation to Rick's Tanchika http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23838
The suggestion is that at some stage these held stones/corals as decoration. There appears to be residue in the indentations on your gun, so what do Members think as to this being some sort of glue which originally held stones in place?
Stu

rickystl · 15th June 2018, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivo

Hi Rick ,

I think it was trigger guard, but she was missing a long time ago.
Besides the two holes is left no trace ....

Ivo

Hi Ivo

That's what I noticed in the photo. With the exception of the two holes, there doesn't seem to be any other evidence there was ever a trigger guard. Curious. At least the one larger hole looks to have had a threaded screw (?)
Usually the trigger guards on these Eastern guns were simply nailed to the stocks instead of being fastened with screws. On the other hand, the size of the trigger plate is large enough to suggest the possibility the gun was made without a guard. Many "Eastern" style guns were made without trigger guards. But I can't think of any other reason for the two holes in that location of the stock.

Rick

rickystl · 15th June 2018, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

A beautiful gun Ivo. I can only echo the comments already placed here, but what about those indentations on the barrel surface? This type of indentation has been discussed elswhere in relation to Rick's Tanchika http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23838
The suggestion is that at some stage these held stones/corals as decoration. There appears to be residue in the indentations on your gun, so what do Members think as to this being some sort of glue which originally held stones in place?
Stu

Hi Stu

After another look, it does appear the barrel has a small trace of silver wire inlay. That would be very common for this quality of barrel. And I can imagine other decoration. I'm pretty sure the barrel is either Ottoman or Persion. The "raised" round holes from the chiseling do seem to suggest stones of some type. If so, you can imagine what this barrel looked like when new.

The barrel and lock should clean up very nice. It's a neat and interesting gun.

Ivo: Let me know if you ever decide to trade it. LOL

Rick

TVV · 15th June 2018, 06:57 PM

Congratulations Ivo, dzeferdars are not easy to find at least in my experience, and this is a really nice gun with a superb, older barrel. You may have seen the one I posted some years ago in the Traditsia Bulgarian forum, with a somewhat similar barrel. Here are some close ups of the silver wire inlay on the barrel and also one photo of the trigger guard. From your photos I cannot tell if the silver inlay on yours was lost or just tarnished to the point where it blends with the steel of the barrel - cleaning it with a product for silver may bring it back out. I also suspect that the little round holes on your barrel once held corals.

Regards,
Teodor

Ivo · 15th June 2018, 10:02 PM

Hi Teo ,

I also think there was coral in the holes ...in the olden times!

Yes, I have seen yours - magnificent !

Regards

rickystl · 16th June 2018, 05:47 PM

Hi Teodor

Thanks so much for adding to this Thread. Much agree with your comments. These Dzeferdars don't seem to come up for sale often. And they tend to bring a higher price. They are easily reconizable with their butt stock design.
That last photo showing the trigger guard style looks like it would fit the two holes in Ivo's gun exactly LOL. Notice the front post of the guard is threaded into the stock. So this may confirm that Ivo's gun is missing it's trigger guard.

Rick

10th June 2018, 09:32 AM	#1
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	Flintlock musket for Comment Hello, I recently bought this musket. Elgood describes a similar as "Dalmatian" / page180 / The form is identical to ,,Džeferdar " There is the best barrel I've ever seen. What is your opinion ? Thank you. Attached Images

13th June 2018, 03:22 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Ivo WOW!! Nice find. Congratulations. A very interesting musket. Would like to see more pics if you have a chance. Butt plate, left side of gun, wrist area, etc. Yes, the butt stock is exactly like the so called Dzeferdar style muskets made at the many gun shops in the Balkans. The style of butt stock actually derives from Italian style long guns from the late 17th to early 18th Century. The lock has that Germanic style that was popular during the third and fourth quarters of the 18th Century, and appears to be a European export lock. Does not look like a locally made copy. And the barrel is really cool !!! Appears engraved/chiseled it's entire length. Again, a really neat gun. Rick Last edited by rickystl; 13th June 2018 at 10:59 PM.

14th June 2018, 02:22 PM	#7
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	caliber - 19 mm Attached Images

15th June 2018, 06:57 PM	#13
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Congratulations Ivo, dzeferdars are not easy to find at least in my experience, and this is a really nice gun with a superb, older barrel. You may have seen the one I posted some years ago in the Traditsia Bulgarian forum, with a somewhat similar barrel. Here are some close ups of the silver wire inlay on the barrel and also one photo of the trigger guard. From your photos I cannot tell if the silver inlay on yours was lost or just tarnished to the point where it blends with the steel of the barrel - cleaning it with a product for silver may bring it back out. I also suspect that the little round holes on your barrel once held corals. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

13th June 2018, 01:41 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I like the butt but I LOVE the barrel! Congratulations!

13th June 2018, 09:55 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I think the eagle mark on the lockplate could be the sign of the Moskau Arsenal ca. 1770 corrado26

13th June 2018, 04:34 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Rick said everything... I'm not surprised by the barrel, the barrels on these guns are always cool. I'm more surprised by the lock... I would place your gun in the 18th c.

13th June 2018, 09:30 PM	#6
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	Thank you ! Of course , I will do more pictures and upload them. Yes - lock is not a local copy and is not replaced ...

14th June 2018, 09:49 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Ivo Thanks so much for the additional photos. Some additional comments...... The decorative brass piece surrounding the breach plug tank was a common feature on many Ottoman long guns. And the zig-zag type engraving is very similar to many brass, ottoman barrel bands I've seen. So the gun could have been made for an Ottoman customer (?) The engraving on the barrel looks fairly generic. So I don't really notice any paticular origin. However, the double bead from sight was a common feature on earlier Persian made barrels. So the barrel could be older than the rest of the gun. The lock id definately of European origin. The tumbler and cover, and the overall build quality show this to me. I see a couple of small holes, but it otherwise appears to have been made without a trigger guard. Or does it look like it is missing ? Again, that's for posting the additional pics. Very nice find. Rick

14th June 2018, 10:14 PM	#9
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	Hi Rick , I think it was trigger guard, but she was missing a long time ago. Besides the two holes is left no trace .... Ivo

15th June 2018, 07:53 AM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	A beautiful gun Ivo. I can only echo the comments already placed here, but what about those indentations on the barrel surface? This type of indentation has been discussed elswhere in relation to Rick's Tanchika http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23838 The suggestion is that at some stage these held stones/corals as decoration. There appears to be residue in the indentations on your gun, so what do Members think as to this being some sort of glue which originally held stones in place? Stu

15th June 2018, 10:02 PM	#14
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	Hi Teo , I also think there was coral in the holes ...in the olden times! Yes, I have seen yours - magnificent ! Regards

16th June 2018, 05:47 PM	#15
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Teodor Thanks so much for adding to this Thread. Much agree with your comments. These Dzeferdars don't seem to come up for sale often. And they tend to bring a higher price. They are easily reconizable with their butt stock design. That last photo showing the trigger guard style looks like it would fit the two holes in Ivo's gun exactly LOL. Notice the front post of the guard is threaded into the stock. So this may confirm that Ivo's gun is missing it's trigger guard. Rick