Bali Hilts

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2013, 11:31 PM

Here is my second attempt to drum up a little bit of interest in keris discussion.

Completely different to my posting of Grandfather photos, several rather nice Balinese hilts.

Perhaps somebody else may wish to add photos of Balinese hilts in their own collection?

henri · 22nd August 2013, 04:51 AM

All right , that is my last buy . Some of you already look at these pics for opinion on material used for this ganesha Bali hilt . Lot of different suggestions but looks like we have sperm whale tooth .... or horn ?! Impossible to remove the selut to get a closed inside view unfortunately .

VVV · 22nd August 2013, 10:47 AM

Nice thread.

Here are some of my favorites.

Michael

Sajen · 22nd August 2013, 02:35 PM

Some more.

Battara · 22nd August 2013, 11:56 PM

Here is my one and only Balinese hilt of ivory. I did the gold work since I could not find anyone here to do it.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd August 2013, 07:21 AM

And now for something completely simple...

The wood is Pink Ivory wood, one of the rarest woods in the world, and incredibly dense. I took the wood to Bali and had a good carver make this.

A. G. Maisey · 25th August 2013, 10:49 AM

Nice hilt Montino, and nice material.

A few years ago I sent two pieces of pink ivory to Madura to be carved. Pink ivory is a bit like purpleheart, in that you must let it sit for a while after working it to let the colour come out. The gentleman who carved my pink ivory thought he knew better than I did, he ignored my instructions and lacquered it immediately after he carved it. My pink ivory hilts are mid brown. I'll clean the lacquer off one day when I get around to it.

Anyway, here's 3 more Bali hilts.

Montino Bourbon · 25th August 2013, 05:40 PM

What is the six-legged animal? More info please!

The accordion-pleated one at the bottom is wonderful too.

David · 25th August 2013, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

What is the six-legged animal? More info please!

Montino, that is know as kocet-kocetan. Here is a good informational thread on them.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=kocet-kocetan

David · 25th August 2013, 09:08 PM

I've posted these before in our "Figural" thread, but for the sake of grouping here are a couple of my Bali hilts. Nothing extraordinary, but they hold some personality for me.

Marcokeris · 27th August 2013, 01:37 PM

Some of mine

rasjid · 27th August 2013, 03:31 PM

Two made by IB Pastika, all material is made from moose horn / elk.
Once polished the old moose material is as good as ivory. Now adays plenty in Bali.

David · 27th August 2013, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Once polished the old moose material is as good as ivory.

hmmm...i'm not sure i understand what that means. As good as ivory in what way?

Beautiful carvings BTW.

Jean · 27th August 2013, 07:03 PM

Will the colour and structure of moose antler remain stable or reach a nice patinated aspect with time or not? If yes, it is indeed an excellent substitute to ivory. However I have noticed traces of uneven shades on some pieces made from moose antler and posted on Ebay.
These carvings are very fine but "too much" for my taste

Regards

David · 27th August 2013, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Will the colour and structure of moose antler remain stable or reach a nice patinated aspect with time or not? If yes, it is indeed an excellent substitute to ivory. However I have noticed traces of uneven shades on some pieces made from moose antler and posted on Ebay.
These carvings are very fine but "too much" for my taste

Regards

As a "substitute" for ivory to stem the slaughter of elephants for that valuable material, i agree. I just can't see this material as being "as good as" ivory. It doesn't have the depth and character of that material (at least not in any example i have seen) and it won't no matter how long it ages.

They are indeed perhaps a bit too fine for some tastes, but i do really like the detail in the kocet-kocetan hilt.

rasjid · 28th August 2013, 10:28 AM

yes David, I mean as substitute, if done properly the finish also smooth similar to ivory material. Ivory still give you better shine and harder material. The Moose material is finer than antler horn and I do have sample from bones (including giraffe bone for my knives), antler horn and ivory.
so, may be back to personal taste..thanks

rasjid · 28th August 2013, 02:24 PM

Some more....

Can someone tell me the story or any reason that this Bali handle in the old days they use human hair? The owner's hair or some one else's?
Thanks in advance

David · 28th August 2013, 03:41 PM

Nice cekak redut (accordian stye) example you show her Rasjid.
On the hair, are you sure the hair on your example is human? I have one of these hilts and the hair just seems too coarse to be human. But i can think of numerous reasons from a magickal perspective why using one's own hair in this context would be effective in strengthening the bond between owner and weapon.

VVV · 28th August 2013, 03:49 PM

Usually the hair on these Balinese hilts are from horse's hair.
However, I have heard that human hair quite often was used to fasten the hilt to the pesi...

Michael

David · 28th August 2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Usually the hair on these Balinese hilts are from horse's hair.
However, I have heard that human hair quite often was used to fasten the hilt to the pesi...

Michael

Yes Michael, i have encountered this, but on Javanese keris only. Do you know if it was a practice outside of Jawa?

Sajen · 28th August 2013, 04:24 PM

Variations in style, age and material.

Sajen · 28th August 2013, 04:27 PM

Bondolan.

Sajen · 28th August 2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Michael, i have encountered this, but on Javanese keris only. Do you know if it was a practice outside of Jawa?

Have found some years ago a Bali keris where the hilt was attached with hair. And have heard that human hair was used by this cenangan hilts sometimes but normally was used horse hair.

rasjid · 28th August 2013, 06:37 PM

David, I'm not saying my hilt is using human hair, just heard story about it. I'm not keen to do some testing anyway

. Looks like many other stories around it.

The cekah / cekahan solas is made from black wood and solas is sebelas ( eleven). I believe Alan's is 23 cuts or more? Havent count it yet.

A. G. Maisey · 30th August 2013, 02:29 AM

Three more, whale's teeth.

Teeth bought in Sydney in 1970's, salvaged from the sea bed rubbish dump of a whaling station in Western Australia. The teeth were taken to Bali and carved there. I did not order specific motifs, and left this to the carver.

rasjid · 3rd September 2013, 03:16 PM

Just in case someone surprise that these one are newly made...

Jean · 4th September 2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Three more, whale's teeth.

Teeth bought in Sydney in 1970's, salvaged from the sea bed rubbish dump of a whaling station in Western Australia. The teeth were taken to Bali and carved there. I did not order specific motifs, and left this to the carver.

Hi Alan,
Very nice specimens of hilts made from marine ivory! How long ago were they made and who was the maker if you agree to tell us?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2013, 10:48 AM

They were done about 3 or 4 years ago.

I do not know who carved them.

Jean, I have found that to get the best possible result from ordered work, at the best possible price, in Jawa and Bali it is best to go through a third party.

Going back 20 or 30 years I used to deal directly with craftsmen, and this works fine if you can be there while the job is being done. You can visit daily, supervise, create a socially binding relationship and at the end of the day you can finish up with a satisfactory result.

However, when you deal directly with a craftsman, place the order and then come back 6 or 12 months later to collect it you are setting yourself up for every possible variation of disappointment, failure and rip-off.

The way to get a good result on the long term order basis is to form a solid business link with a reliable third party:- business people are motivated by money; artists are motivated by emotion and personal contact.

However, if you use an agent to place and manage your order, you often do not know exactly who did the work.

In Solo I mostly know who the craftsman is who did the work, exactly what his personal situation is, and exactly what he charged for it.

In Bali I know nothing, except how to get the best possible finished product.

rasjid · 4th September 2013, 03:07 PM

Agreed Alan, from personal experience any where in the world would be similar situation...

Battara · 5th September 2013, 12:18 AM

Alan, great carvings - reminiscent of older work IMHO.

2 questions:

If I were to send a piece to get gold Achenese mounts, should I do what you did in the case with Bali?
Do Balinese ivory keris hilts use mounts made of silver, or would gold also work?

21st August 2013, 11:31 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	Bali Hilts Here is my second attempt to drum up a little bit of interest in keris discussion. Completely different to my posting of Grandfather photos, several rather nice Balinese hilts. Perhaps somebody else may wish to add photos of Balinese hilts in their own collection? Attached Images

22nd August 2013, 04:51 AM	#2
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	All right , that is my last buy . Some of you already look at these pics for opinion on material used for this ganesha Bali hilt . Lot of different suggestions but looks like we have sperm whale tooth .... or horn ?! Impossible to remove the selut to get a closed inside view unfortunately . Attached Images

22nd August 2013, 10:47 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice thread. Here are some of my favorites. Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 22nd August 2013 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Forgot to attach the wooden KK-hilt

22nd August 2013, 02:35 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Some more. Attached Images

22nd August 2013, 11:56 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Here is my one and only Balinese hilt of ivory. I did the gold work since I could not find anyone here to do it. Attached Images

23rd August 2013, 07:21 AM	#6
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	And now for something completely simple... The wood is Pink Ivory wood, one of the rarest woods in the world, and incredibly dense. I took the wood to Bali and had a good carver make this. Attached Images

25th August 2013, 10:49 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	Nice hilt Montino, and nice material. A few years ago I sent two pieces of pink ivory to Madura to be carved. Pink ivory is a bit like purpleheart, in that you must let it sit for a while after working it to let the colour come out. The gentleman who carved my pink ivory thought he knew better than I did, he ignored my instructions and lacquered it immediately after he carved it. My pink ivory hilts are mid brown. I'll clean the lacquer off one day when I get around to it. Anyway, here's 3 more Bali hilts. Attached Images

25th August 2013, 05:40 PM	#8
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Incredible as usual! What is the six-legged animal? More info please! The accordion-pleated one at the bottom is wonderful too.

25th August 2013, 09:08 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	I've posted these before in our "Figural" thread, but for the sake of grouping here are a couple of my Bali hilts. Nothing extraordinary, but they hold some personality for me. Attached Images

27th August 2013, 01:37 PM	#11
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Some of mine Attached Images

27th August 2013, 03:31 PM	#12
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	New Bali Hilts Two made by IB Pastika, all material is made from moose horn / elk. Once polished the old moose material is as good as ivory. Now adays plenty in Bali. Attached Images

27th August 2013, 07:03 PM	#14
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Will the colour and structure of moose antler remain stable or reach a nice patinated aspect with time or not? If yes, it is indeed an excellent substitute to ivory. However I have noticed traces of uneven shades on some pieces made from moose antler and posted on Ebay. These carvings are very fine but "too much" for my taste Regards

28th August 2013, 10:28 AM	#16
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	yes David, I mean as substitute, if done properly the finish also smooth similar to ivory material. Ivory still give you better shine and harder material. The Moose material is finer than antler horn and I do have sample from bones (including giraffe bone for my knives), antler horn and ivory. so, may be back to personal taste..thanks Last edited by rasjid; 28th August 2013 at 02:18 PM.

28th August 2013, 02:24 PM	#17
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Some more.... Can someone tell me the story or any reason that this Bali handle in the old days they use human hair? The owner's hair or some one else's? Thanks in advance Attached Images

28th August 2013, 03:41 PM	#18
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Nice cekak redut (accordian stye) example you show her Rasjid. On the hair, are you sure the hair on your example is human? I have one of these hilts and the hair just seems too coarse to be human. But i can think of numerous reasons from a magickal perspective why using one's own hair in this context would be effective in strengthening the bond between owner and weapon.

28th August 2013, 03:49 PM	#19
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Usually the hair on these Balinese hilts are from horse's hair. However, I have heard that human hair quite often was used to fasten the hilt to the pesi... Michael

28th August 2013, 04:24 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Variations in style, age and material. Attached Images

28th August 2013, 04:27 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Bondolan. Attached Images

28th August 2013, 06:37 PM	#24
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	David, I'm not saying my hilt is using human hair, just heard story about it. I'm not keen to do some testing anyway . Looks like many other stories around it. The cekah / cekahan solas is made from black wood and solas is sebelas ( eleven). I believe Alan's is 23 cuts or more? Havent count it yet. Last edited by rasjid; 29th August 2013 at 02:13 AM.

30th August 2013, 02:29 AM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	Three more, whale's teeth. Teeth bought in Sydney in 1970's, salvaged from the sea bed rubbish dump of a whaling station in Western Australia. The teeth were taken to Bali and carved there. I did not order specific motifs, and left this to the carver. Attached Images

3rd September 2013, 03:16 PM	#26
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Just in case someone surprise that these one are newly made... Attached Images

4th September 2013, 10:48 AM	#28
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	They were done about 3 or 4 years ago. I do not know who carved them. Jean, I have found that to get the best possible result from ordered work, at the best possible price, in Jawa and Bali it is best to go through a third party. Going back 20 or 30 years I used to deal directly with craftsmen, and this works fine if you can be there while the job is being done. You can visit daily, supervise, create a socially binding relationship and at the end of the day you can finish up with a satisfactory result. However, when you deal directly with a craftsman, place the order and then come back 6 or 12 months later to collect it you are setting yourself up for every possible variation of disappointment, failure and rip-off. The way to get a good result on the long term order basis is to form a solid business link with a reliable third party:- business people are motivated by money; artists are motivated by emotion and personal contact. However, if you use an agent to place and manage your order, you often do not know exactly who did the work. In Solo I mostly know who the craftsman is who did the work, exactly what his personal situation is, and exactly what he charged for it. In Bali I know nothing, except how to get the best possible finished product.

4th September 2013, 03:07 PM	#29
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Agreed Alan, from personal experience any where in the world would be similar situation...

5th September 2013, 12:18 AM	#30
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Alan, great carvings - reminiscent of older work IMHO. 2 questions: If I were to send a piece to get gold Achenese mounts, should I do what you did in the case with Bali? Do Balinese ivory keris hilts use mounts made of silver, or would gold also work?