Katar (????) for comment ...

[HUSAR]

Hello Everybody!
This dagger I got yesterday from old collection, owner is collecting European swords and this was almost the only eastern item he had… I`m not keen on katars, but this one looks very interesting to me, blade is wavy and made of wootz steel, 34 cm long. In overall dagger measures 50 cm. Any comments are welcome!
Best
HUSAR

[katana]

Certainly not a usual Katar ....almost a cross between a Katar and a Pata.
Very nice variant.

[HUSAR]

yes looks like some combination of those two forms rather rare I think

[Tim Simmons]

and nice. What do you think went in the four holes? chain mail? a metal cover?

[carlos]

AND A CROSS BETWEEN A KERIS AND A KATAR?
BEST
CARLOS

[katana]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

and nice. What do you think went in the four holes? chain mail? a metal cover?

Well spotted Tim......judging by the size of the holes maile would seem more likely.....although it could be attaching points for some sort of adornment

[Andrew]

The grip(s?) and guard look odd to me. And the blade affixation looks weak.

Ceremonial or decorative, perhaps?

[Valjhun]

Very nice piece!
I love it!

Andrew, the blade affixation is rather weak on all katars.

Tim, holes were used for attaching the padding.

[B.I]

I think the holes are more than likely to attach padding. Firangis used the same concept, in a thickened padded insert, shaped to fit into the grip and attached by just one or two holes. As did patas.
I dont feel the contruction is weak at all, but as Andrew said, it was possibly more for a ceremonial use.
This piece is unusual in design, but of a specific type. The is a similar example in Stone, now in the Met. This has a different shaped guard (which makes it look more like the normal hooded katars) but the contruction is completely different to them, and more like this example (with the blade welded to the guard and grip(s) riveted on. I am away from my library, so cant show the katar I mean in Stone, but it is pictured with the other katars. I am sure this is of the same type, as I have seen a few of them and the similarities are remarkable. The image in Stone only shows the outside, so the similarity is lost.
The design on this guard is South Indian, and the evidence of silver plating adds to this as an origin. I feel the dating to be later than the hooded katars, and made in a retro fashion.
The wavy blade is uncommon, but also does appear know and then. This feature also adds to its potential use as a ceremonial piece (see attached image from the Royal Armouries).

Husar, are you sure the blade is wootz?

[katana]

Here are several pictures....one states the evolution of the Katar to Pata....perhaps this is an example of this 'transition'. The other picture shows that the 'wavy' blade is not exclusive to the SEA.

[HUSAR]

Husar, are you sure the blade is wootz?[/QUOTE]


Hello
I`m not sure that the blade is wootz I will try to bring out pattern maybe next weeknd and post more pictures. But from the steel "shape" I think it is wootz.

[HUSAR]

Dear Members
Thank you for reply I see that you really like that dagger Thank you for all comments and pictures!
The conection of the blade and hilt is not weak at all, and in my opinion is rather not ceremonial, but i`m NOT expert in katars either look at the back site of the hilt, it is really well made
I totally agree with you that holes in hilt are for some kind of pad like in kula-zereh helmets or in firangi swords.
Best
HUSAR

[Jim McDougall]

This is a truly unusual example of 'katar' and I agree with B.I.'s assessment of southern India. From the look of the patination etc. it shows good age and likely early 19th c. seems probable. I have not ever seen one of these mounted in this manner, with the transverse grips actually fixed handles welded to the plate type handguard. I agree with Andrew that this piece seems 'ceremonial' as the more two dimensional construction with the plate type guard, rather than contoured hand enclosure suggests that. I dont believe the construction seems weak at all, but the ceremonial application seems supported as well by the nagan or serpentine blade form, which in most cases I have seen have been determined to be in this category.

I think the decorative motif on the guard 'plate' may be the best indicator of the provenance of this distinctly unusual piece. The scalloped edges of the upper and lower udges of the guard plate recall the 'cusped arch' seen in the Peacock Gate of the city palace at Jaipur ("Arts and Crafts of India", Cooper & Gillow, 1996, p.147). While this design here may be Hindu, it is also noted that the four cusp design seen at base of the blade on some Vijayanagara period katars (latter 16th c.) reflect similarity to Muslim architecture ("Hindu Arms and Ritual" p.147). The diamond sectioned diaper pattern enclosing a floral motif seems to me key to Mughal form , and possibly Jens can add more on this.

The holes which may be for the addition of padding also suggest this may be a ceremonial item. It would seem to me that padding would be superfluous to the gauntleted hand of an armored warrior, although we do know that many pieces such as the khandas mentioned and of course patas did have pads.
Elgood has suggested (op.cit.p.147) that on many katar examples of the hooded form padding is absent because of no apparant means of attaching it. Possibly, padding only existed on weapons used by the more pedestrian rank and file? where gauntlets and such armor were not available to them.

This seems a very important and key find and I look forward to learning more from it!! Hopefully there will be more observations from B.I. and Jens on the motif and especially what the floral motif depicts.

All the best,
Jim

[Battara]

I agree with Andrew, the piece would be too weak. I have seen and held katars and they in their hey-day could withstand the forces of impact generated. This type of soldering (not looking like welding which would be even stronger that soldering, though still weak) would not hold up long under combat force impact. I'm more for ceremonial. The blade itself maybe fine, but I would suggest that it was not original to the piece and that this piece is a composite.

[Tim Simmons]

Forge welding, folded steel. Like Japanese stuff the holy grail Very strong very practical even if it looks light.
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tuto.../top_index.htm
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tuto.../top_index.htm

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Andrew, the blade affixation is rather weak on all katars.

Hi Valjhun. I have to disagree with you on this one. The katars I've handled have been quite sturdy. Certainly, exceptions are encountered.

Most are mounted in such a fashion as to neatly handle significant linear force generated by a punching motion. The attachment of this blade directly to the guard as shown would not appear to be optimal for the linear or lateral forces one would expect to encounter.

I wouldn't want to rely on this weapon to defend myself in a fight.

[Valjhun]

I meant, that all katars are weak weapons compared to other classic hilted daggers and swords, simply because the blade is soldered to the hilt and that soldering is never very extensive. I find the soldering on thatone much more stronger than on other katars. I bet that a normal classic katar or even a turup would break more easily than thatone.

[B.I]

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I meant, that all katars are weak weapons compared to other classic hilted daggers and swords, simply because the blade is soldered to the hilt and that soldering is never very extensive. I find the soldering on thatone much more stronger than on other katars. I bet that a normal classic katar or even a turup would break more easily than thatone.

Sorry, I cant agree with this. Not all katars are contructed the same. Some are one piece, and some have langets and are riveted. All of these, and the forge-welded examples were very sturdy, and not weak at all. The example you show does not show a typical katar construction, and so cant really be used to verify this point. This katar is a retro piece, based on a much earlier example and so not made for heavy use. Its original form dates back to the 16thC, but feel yours is much later. These pieces were shown in early sculpture, and so its form was revered and replicated.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Husar,

You have a most extraordinary katar; I have seen a fair number of katars, but never one like this one.

I too have a feeling that it is a ceremonial weapon, and Andrew has explained the reason for this very well. Most are mounted in such a fashion as to neatly handle significant linear force generated by a punching motion. The attachment of this blade directly to the guard as shown would not appear to be optimal for the linear or lateral forces one would expect to encounter.

South India gets my vote as well, and like several of you have mentioned, the katar is a very solid weapon. Well Jim, I can’t see the flowers well enough, and even if I could, it is not sure I would know which flowers it is. Congratulation with your acquisition.

Can you give us some measurers? Total length, length of blade, plate size, the width of the two bars, how much place is there for the hand?

[Rick]

B.I.,
I still think that wavy blade katar from the Royal Armouries bears a Bali keris blade.
Would you have any idea of the length of that piece?

The piece under discussion suggests (to me) use as a main gauche; that would explain the padding for the back of the hand.

[HUSAR]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Husar,

You have a most extraordinary katar; I have seen a fair number of katars, but never one like this one.

I too have a feeling that it is a ceremonial weapon, and Andrew has explained the reason for this very well. Most are mounted in such a fashion as to neatly handle significant linear force generated by a punching motion. The attachment of this blade directly to the guard as shown would not appear to be optimal for the linear or lateral forces one would expect to encounter.

South India gets my vote as well, and like several of you have mentioned, the katar is a very solid weapon. Well Jim, I can’t see the flowers well enough, and even if I could, it is not sure I would know which flowers it is. Congratulation with your acquisition.

Can you give us some measurers? Total length, length of blade, plate size, the width of the two bars, how much place is there for the hand?

Hello here are some more measures :

The total length 50 cm
Blade length 34 cm
Blade is 3 cm wide to 1 cm near the tip
Plate wide 10.5 cm (at the top) 8 cm near bars
Plate hight 16.5 cm
larger bar 10 cm wide
smaller bar 7.5 cm wide
there is little space for hand like in some katars and tulwars, I can hardly put part of my hand inside...

[Jim McDougall]

Still intrigued by this piece I have continued digging here, and as Jens notes, I agree with Andrew's extremely well worded observations supporting the construction of the example. I agree with Brian, that this appears to be a retro item and is was indeed very typical to have representative weapons fabricated for ceremonial purposes.

Although we all seem to agree this is a piece from southern India, it seems most indicators suggest that it is Mughal. As I had noted earlier, the motif may give us more clues as to possible provenance. I began looking at various Mughal metalwork and armour hoping to find similar design for the diamond pattern geometric diaper pattern, which at last I did in "Islamic Arms & Armour of Muslim India", (Dr.Syed Haider, Lahore, 1991). On p.98 there is a zirah (mail waist coat) with the distinct diagonal diaper pattern. Dr. Haider describes the pattern, typically describing wavy or geometric texture patterns employed in such design as termed 'ganga jumni pattern'. The symbolism supposedly alludes to the confluence of the rivers Ganges and Jamna and the meeting of muddy and clear waters.

Having determined that the geometric diaper pattern is indeed Mughal, I decided to look further into the flowers depicted, though as Jens indicated they are extremely difficult to see with the conflicting corrosion in the silver covering. It would seem they are a six petaled flower with pointed petal tip. In searching through "India: Arts and Culture" (Welch, p.220, fig.145), I found a near matching asiatic tulip, shown in a painting by Mughal emperor Jahangir c.1620. While these flowers seem to be native to Kashmir, and suggest northern Mughal regions...it would seem likely that such motif would be favored in revival or ceremonial retro elements fashioned for court wear in the southern Mughal courts as in most probably the Deccan.

I think it is worthy of note that the wear of quilted 'armor' was more typical of the southern regions, and such diagonal design seen on this katar would be more in line as an element en suite in accoutrement.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Interesting Jim, you have, as always, made your homework. Now when measuring my katars, between the side guards, I find that they have measurers between 6.5 cm and 7.5 cm. This alone would, to me, indicate that it was not meant to be used.

[B.I]

The dagger, I feel, shares a close resemblance is in Stone, page 487 fig 1 and 2. Although this dagger seems of completely different form, and has a langet that holds the blade, the overall feel is the same, as is the 'thin' construction. I have seen three of these daggers (inc the Stone/Met) and handled one of them. The image in Stone in decieving, and I feel sure they are of the same grouping.

Jim, your assessment is well written, as ever. I agree that this geometric diaper pattern has definate northern similarites, but also feel it is also a Deccani feature. Bidriware uses a variety of this, and it also decorates both scupture and temples in the south. I think that one aspect (ie the guard decoration) shouldnt be singled out, and maybe it is best to judge this piece as a whole. To me, it screams southern. The difference between Mughal and Deccani can sometimes be very subtle. I am sure i can find a northern piece that simulates this exact pattern, but that still doesnt steer my opinion from a southern origin.
But, this is all speculative and based on opinin only.

Rick, I am pretty sure that the katar from Leeds holds an Indian blade. They did occasionally go flamboyant, but the thickness, central ridge and steel patina doesnt seem to lend towards a South-East Asian origin. could be wrong though, as I am going by scant memory and the same image you are looking at.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,
Very interesting what you write about the tulips, as i did somewhere read that they used tulips for decoration, only i don't recall where i read it, but I will have to try and find it.

[katana]

Found this, these are described as South Indian Pata and are similar in construction to the 'Katar' which started this thread. Some have straps at the extreme ends of the 'guard' could be the reason for the holes seen on Husar's 'Katar'.....

[Jens Nordlunde]

Well Katana, I am quite relieved that Stone agrees with us, that Husar’s katar it from south India, and when I saw the last picture you posted, I did remember it. I think it is time I withdraw what I said about a ceremonial katar, but I am still of the opinion that a stab from a katar with a ‘normal’ grip will be more powerful, than it would be from one with a grip parallel to the blade.

[HUSAR]

DEAR ALL!!!
Thank you for great discussion and all comments.
Best wishes for ALL of You in coming 2007!
HUSAR

[spiral]

I dont collect these so take what I say with a big pinch of salt.

But to me, It looks like 20th century construction or reconstruction methods. The blade to plate join looks like oxy acetlene welding that even continues to edges of the plate! {although ground,flattened,hammered etc..}Ive never seen any forge welding that looked like that.

I also notice those "draw" handles show that each was at one time riveted or had screws through them they have either remains of the rivets in them or there again have been welded or somesuch. But there are no signs of such riveting on the outside of the plate?

But thats just my observations & thoughts.

Are such "features" usual on these?

Spiral