Blade origin of Manding sword?

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 07:01 PM

I recently picked up this Manding sword and I'm curious about the origin of the blade. From a distance it looks like an old European saber, but up close it's very roughly finished. The blade shape is odd too, it looks it was reworked to have a pointy tip and and a false edge. If you run your hands down the side of the blade, it feels wavy, as if the thickness of the blade keeps changing.

I wonder if it's a locally made approximation of a European saber blade, or if it's a saber that's been heavily worked over with a file and chisel? The blade's 25mm wide and 7mm thick at the hilt. The spine is square and also covered in file marks.

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 07:10 PM

These short sabres are nearly always native blades in my experience. They are somewhat rough and ready in finish but are actually very good quality blades. It would be very nice to learn more about there manufacture. Are they nomad/semi nomad production? What is the quality of the tools use? Are the anvils stone? and so much more.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 07:18 PM

Interesting. I had read that they were usually French or British infantry sabers. But every time I see one go up for auction they seem to have locally made blades. I have another one that has a very crudely made blade that's still covered in scale and hammer marks.

Interesting thing about the hilt and scabbard - the bottom of the scabbard is dried out and faded, while the upper scabbard and hilt are dark and shiny. I guess the body oil of the previous owner kept the leather in good condition.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2014, 08:39 PM

Actually the blades on these Manding sabres that I have seen often have military sabre blades, typically from French cavalry sabres which of course were prevalent in these regions . These typically came of course from French occupied areas and were often Solingen made, the name Holler on many of them . These blades often became mounted in the Tuareg curved form of the takouba termed the 'aljuinar' (as per data from Lee Jones).
I have even seen English blades by MOLE in these.

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

It would of course be hard to say exactly how this guardless hilt sabre form developed but since the Manding were primary factors of the trade routes and entrepots in Timbouctou and others they would have had considerable exposure to incoming influences. Since much of this trade was networked from as far as Zanzibar which was of course the key entrepot of the Omani Sultanate.It has long been my personal opinion that the cylindrical hilt well known with Omani merchants and their 'kattaras' may have travelled on these routes through the African interior, trans-Sahara and into Mali.
While the distinct cylindrical type hilts developed in Muscat and in the case of available trade sabre blades became the curved version of these swords, perhaps the Manding version of these came from these, with the instance f using such trade or otherwise acquired European sabre blades.

Years ago the compelling connections between the curious baselard like weapon with 'H' shape hilt termed the 'Zanzibar' sword by Demmin (1877) via Burton (1884) and corrected by Buttin (1933) ...and the Moroccan sboula were shown. Clearly these weapons were one in the same and connected via these same trade routes and entrepots.

I have personally considered many African edged weapons to be 'reflective' of many outside influences, and becoming the now distinctive forms often regarded as indigenous to their respective regions.

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 08:48 PM

Yes the larger versions are always made from European sword blade. This example is a shorter lighter version.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 09:30 PM

Ah, okay. The blade on this one is 62cm long.

Quote:

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

I didn't want to insult the capabilities of the native blacksmiths, especially after owning a couple of very nice native made Kaskaras which I admire very much, but my gut instinct was that this was a little too refined to have been made by hand over there. I do still wonder what this started out as, since the blade is much more curved than the 19th century sabers I own. It reminded me more of a Polish szabla or a turkish blade.

Another data point: I flexed the blade by hand and the "false edge" tip of the blade permanently bent very easily (I won't be trying this again). The rest of the blade resisted fine, so maybe the tip had been weakened since material removed to make the false edge. I bent it back straight just as easily. The only two European swords I have are an 1867 Austrian infantry officer's saber and an 1889 Prussian cavarly degen. Both easily resisted the same amount of pressure without taking a permanent bend.

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 10:33 PM

Well that is not really like for like. State or rather rich empire manufacture verses semi desert nomads which is why I find them interesting.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 11:07 PM

I bring it up because I'm not convinced it's origin is indigious or European, and its excessive bendiness is another point in the "indiginous" column. The deep, wide, straight hollow ground fuller is a point on the "European" side. Was this blade forged from scrap metal in west Africa post WWII, or was it made in the 1800's in Solingen or Chatellerault or Sheffield.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2014, 11:18 PM

While Im not well enough versed to describe the particulars, it is my understanding that one of the great innovations in blade production for swords which made German blades so successful was this process of hollow grinding the blade face rather than the drawn fullering. It seems this required certain machinery or equipment not typically found in more basic blacksmithing contexts.

While this blade may be smaller, it has clearly been reworked and reprofiled and from the sound of the description quite a bit of stock removed. The very sharp point is of course not typical of these sabre blades.

There is no affront whatsoever to native smiths concerning the comparison of this type blade to the other forms they normally produce. In fact, it is now well known that many blades of exceptional quality were indeed native produced when they had originally been thought to be European.

Tim Simmons · 26th March 2014, 09:09 AM

Another reason for my doubts of a reworked European blade is, European blades are used and reworked on larger sabre and are clearly what they are. Also I find it hard to believe the sword makers would then make such an tidy conversion for smaller sabre. They might well be made from scrap iron. Perhaps your one is a little softer at the tip than others?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th March 2014, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually the blades on these Manding sabres that I have seen often have military sabre blades, typically from French cavalry sabres which of course were prevalent in these regions . These typically came of course from French occupied areas and were often Solingen made, the name Holler on many of them . These blades often became mounted in the Tuareg curved form of the takouba termed the 'aljuinar' (as per data from Lee Jones).
I have even seen English blades by MOLE in these.

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

It would of course be hard to say exactly how this guardless hilt sabre form developed but since the Manding were primary factors of the trade routes and entrepots in Timbouctou and others they would have had considerable exposure to incoming influences. Since much of this trade was networked from as far as Zanzibar which was of course the key entrepot of the Omani Sultanate.It has long been my personal opinion that the cylindrical hilt well known with Omani merchants and their 'kattaras' may have travelled on these routes through the African interior, trans-Sahara and into Mali.
While the distinct cylindrical type hilts developed in Muscat and in the case of available trade sabre blades became the curved version of these swords, perhaps the Manding version of these came from these, with the instance f using such trade or otherwise acquired European sabre blades.

Years ago the compelling connections between the curious baselard like weapon with 'H' shape hilt termed the 'Zanzibar' sword by Demmin (1877) via Burton (1884) and corrected by Buttin (1933) ...and the Moroccan sboula were shown. Clearly these weapons were one in the same and connected via these same trade routes and entrepots.

I have personally considered many African edged weapons to be 'reflective' of many outside influences, and becoming the now distinctive forms often regarded as indigenous to their respective regions.

Salaams Jim..et al ...This has to be one of the most important threads viz-a-viz influence in and around Manding and Omani sword forms. Did the Manding influence the Omani Kattara? ( the curved slave captains / merchant sword) We know the hilt from that was copied onto the invented straight Omani Dancing Sayf in or just after 1744 when it became the heraldic and pageant sword in praise of the Sultan;The Busaidi Dynastic Sword.
The hilt may be described as a long flattened connical hilt often accompanied with a counterbalacing pommel. A view of the slave trade would possibly help members appreciate the scope for influence in this regard..thus see below.

Please note forums "Kattara for Comments" thread which has copious notes and diagrams / maps of the infamous Omani slave trader Tipputip pictured here, who essentially controlled the major part of internal Africa for slavery (he personally owned 10,000 slaves)...the main exit and collecting point being Zanzibar and the entire Zanj region of Africa. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

There is a very good exchange of ideas touching the subject at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=mendinka

See also #5 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=omani+kattara

In conclusion, it would seem obvious that any influence from one regional sword to another would have flowed along the same lines as the trade /slavery routes. It seems to me that the actual fusion of ideas on Omani hilts was in distinct phases... Firstly from slaver sword style to Kattara: West to Central Africa. Then Central Africa to East Africa and Zanj/Zanzibar. The simple final step being from Kattara to the newly invented Omani Dancing Sayf in about 1744.

The Manding being central to the theme.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2014, 03:36 AM

Some great questions here. Most notably, why in the world would a native armourer fabricate a hollow ground blade in European style, only to be dramatically ground down and cut down along with completely changing the tip? Further, why and how would they do that from scrap?

The Manding regions expand throughout French West Africa, with those French occupied regions including Mauritania, Mali (French Sudan), French Guinea, Cote d' Ivoire, Burkina Faso, Dahomey and Niger.
To the north were French occupied regions of Algeria, later Tunisia and Morocco.

I do not find it surprising that with this presence throughout these regions that military sabre blades would become available to native armourers. It should be noted of course that while French blades were typically from French producers they were also widely from Solingen. In the case of this extremely 'worked' blade there is no longer the opportunity for normal identification from markings.
It seems worthy to note as well that trade blades of course were heavily brought into North Africa through various points to be traded into Saharan and Sudanese regions, but these were typically broadsword blades, not sabre blades.
I would mention again the Tuareg curved versions of the takouba (termed ajuinar) are known in Mali and another I have seen from Burkina Faso had a British curved sabre blade by MOLE. Others have been seen with marked French sabre blades, but as noted, these are not typically reduced down like this one.

The distinct resemblance of the Manding sabre to the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' (and examples of these with curved blades) as noted do bring thoughts toward a connection.
It would seem that any connections or similarities must have been transmitted through networking and of course not by direct contact with Omani merchants or slavers. I have pointed out influences between Zanzibar and as far as Morocco and of course Mali in the open cylindrical hilt of these sabres and the 'Zanzibar' sword and their similarities, but must admit these remain circumstantial.

While Omani traders did not move inland, other Arab traders connected did set up bases and networks on the mainland. It is through these networks that I believe any influences must have been diffused. It is interesting that the Maasai sword with cylindrical hilt known as the seme' seems to have been in the direct path and regions of these networks.

blue lander · 27th March 2014, 03:50 AM

I took some side by side photos to give a little more context.
1 side by side with a "scrap metal" Manding sword and an Austrian saber.
2 closeup of the scrap metal Manding sword and the Manding sword in question
3 closeup of Manding sword and Austrian saber
4 spine thickness of the two Manding swords, the scrap metal one being the thinner
5 Manding sword next to two other "converted" African daggers with European saber blades. Big one is a Shula, small one is some sort of ersatz koumyya relative I guess
6 closeup of all three blades.

Edit: never mind, they all posted out of order. But you get the idea.

The Manding blade isn't quite as refined as the other Euro blades and it doesn't have any patina to it. But it definitely was retipped in a very similar fashion to the Shula and the other dagger. And as Jim said, why would the Manding make the tip in one shape and then grind it into another shape?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th March 2014, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

I took some side by side photos to give a little more context.
1 side by side with a "scrap metal" Manding sword and an Austrian saber.
2 closeup of the scrap metal Manding sword and the Manding sword in question
3 closeup of Manding sword and Austrian saber
4 spine thickness of the two Manding swords, the scrap metal one being the thinner
5 Manding sword next to two other "converted" African daggers with European saber blades. Big one is a Shula, small one is some sort of ersatz koumyya relative I guess
6 closeup of all three blades.

Edit: never mind, they all posted out of order. But you get the idea.

The Manding blade isn't quite as refined as the other Euro blades and it doesn't have any patina to it. But it definitely was retipped in a very similar fashion to the Shula and the other dagger. And as Jim said, why would the Manding make the tip in one shape and then grind it into another shape?

Salaams ! What you probably have here is a rather scratched up version of a European blade..somewhat less quality since it had a tip that permanently bent when pressed ...Nonetheless a reasonable example of late European French/German trade ..possibly a parade version not particularly required to be fought with..on a basic Manding hilt.

Tipu Tip the great Oman slave trader "owned" much of the interior centred obliquely on the Falls of the Congo River.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=tipu #10 for a reasonably full account and a general map is set out from that post below.

My view is that the influence occured from the Manding region to the falls Hub(Tipu Tip) thence to East Africa and the Zanj. Zanzibar being the generator/collecting point of slaves would have ensured recognition of the hilt form into Omani circles, moreover, it would have been in the right place at the right time to be accepted for the new pageantry only item...The Omani Dancing Sayf.

Nice to view the Manding in respect of influence on Omani Swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 27th March 2014, 02:58 PM

If it's a parade/dress saber that would explain the bending as well as how lightly built it is overall. And thank you as always for providing the historical context. I wonder why they altered the tip of the blade. It doesn't seem typical for Manding swords. Maybe the original tip snapped off and this is how they repaired it.

I once saw an auction for an "African saber" that was a completely unaltered European saber with its original European style guard and hilt, but in a Manding style leather scabbard. I wish I had saved a picture. If that saber could have been identified by the shape of the guard, maybe it would tell us more about when and where the Manding got their blades. Assuming it wasn't an anomaly of course.

Edit: never mind. I found the auction in my browser history and the scabbard looks like it's North African, not Manding. I must have misremembered. Here it is anyways. It looks quite a bit like a takouba scabbard, and the saber itself looks like a cheapo private purchase one rather than anything military issued.

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2014, 06:24 PM

Very nicely done Blue!!! Thank you for the excellent comparisons, most helpful. I think, as Ibrahiim has noted, this is indeed most likely a later 19th century European sabre blade, probably an officers, and as we have agreed, pretty savagely ground and reprofiled.

The intact European sabre is most interesting, and indeed does have a Tuareg style scabbard, something I have honestly not seen used on an original European sword. This type of anomaly certainly does reinforce the profound availability of these European swords and blades throughout these regions.

I think that determining the direction of diffusion and influence of certain forms of weapons, in this case pertaining of course primarily to the hilt, is quite difficult. As we know, blades can come from many sources, but the hilt is typically a locally applied style in the region from which it is provenanced.

We have here a basic similarity in the cylindrical hilt style of the Manding sabre as well as the Omani kattara, which of course seems to have appeared around mid 18th century in Oman as Ibrahiim has well contended. While the kattara is of course typically known to carry the broadsword blades which were typically trade blades in the Red Sea sphere supplying the Sudan, it does seem that curved blades in the same circumstances afforded the appearance of sabre type versions.

Returning to the Saharan regions of West Africa where the Manding sabres prevail, we must consider if other guardless and cylindrical style hilts are found in surrounding regions and of such presence that they became the hilt form now well known. If there is evidence that cylindrical style hilts were present in surrounding regions, and prior to the mid 18th century date of origin of the Omani kattara hilt, then we have plausibility for the theory of African origin of this hilt style.

As trade and caravan routes are of course reciprocal, then the appearance of these cylindrical hilts on the Kenyan 'seme' swords could well have occurred via these routes in either direction.

It is known that a certain cylindrical style hilt, quite basic as seen on the Algerian knives shown in Blue Landers illustrations (often using cut down sabre blades in the same fashion as this posted Manding sabre) is known in regions of Sierra Leone. These often have kaskara type trade blades, but it seems that most are from well into the 19th century, so may be considered 'reflectively' influenced from the hilts of the Manding and trade blades carried on trans Saharan routes.

We may also consider that simple hilts, that is without guard system, are of course known in another expanse of the Saharan sphere, which is part of the Berber complex. That is in the Kabyle regions of Algeria and the sword is the flyssa . As far as has been determined, these intriguing hilts (the blades are almost invariably native) with stylized zoomorphic pommel, do not date much beyond early 19th century, so exceed any potential for influence.

It is worthy of note however, that the flyssa does have a characteristically sharply pointed tip, which the posted Manding sword seems to reflect in degree in its reprofiled tip. Again , these comparisons do not help us with seeking origins on the hilt style.
I would point out that Ottoman forces were present not only in North Africa but in Arabia. The Ottomans used for many centuries, men from Caucasian regions who not only were in the Janissaries but Mamluks in Egypt . Perhaps the weapons of these men, which of course included yataghans and shashkas, presented the idea of a simpler form of hilt? I think this would support the idea that these hilts might have developed in Arabia and transmitted westward via the trade venues.

blue lander · 27th March 2014, 07:22 PM

You know, when I first saw a Manding cylindrical hilt I assume it was shaped that way for practical reasons rather than stylistic ones. Like, if you took a stick tang sword and wrapped leather around it to make a hilt, that's the shape you'd end up with.

My other "scrap metal" Manding sword has a very different hilt construction. The tang is almost the full width of the blade. The end of the tang was folded back on top of itself to create a pommel. A leather cap covers it, but it's easily removed. I've seen quite a few similar swords go up for auction and they all appear to have a similar construction. The scabbards terminate in a tip like a European scabbard rather than the usual Manding style. The scabbards always feature woven multicolor leather. The blades are always blackened and extremely crude. The hilt is sometimes circular or sometimes dog bone shape, but there's never any metal furniture to it. Are these modern Manding swords made in a simpler style by less skilled artisans, or tourist pieces, or what?

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2014, 11:20 PM

That hilt strongly reminds me of the Sierra Leone swords I mentioned, which of course would not have been confined to that region but as always collectors have to put some kind of label on it. It is known that European type sabres have been in use throughout West Africa into modern times, so seeing these type of chape sleeves is not surprising .

What you are saying is systematically correct, fashioning a grip or hilt that is serviceable is a simple affair, so a rounded handle would serve well. It is of course understandable that a weapon being at least somewhat a status item one would not want just a crude lump of wood, so design and decoration would be employed accordingly .

I tend to dislike the cavalier description of 'tourist' item for ethnographic weapons at large as in many, possibly even most cases, these weapons are used in at least some degree as traditional accoutrements among tribal peoples. I think these somewhat crudely fashioned items fall into that traditional category, while the touristy items are obviously too fragile and focused on bling for combat or actual use. In many of these regions, edged weapons (often collectively termed machetes by journalists) are indeed still used.

blue lander · 28th March 2014, 04:24 AM

I'll have to read up more on Sierra Leone and its swords. I've attached a picture of the rolled up end of the tang, which I thought was pretty clever. I've always wondered what the pattern on the fabric is from. It looks like it used to be covered in black leather so it wasn't mean to be seen.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2014, 05:28 AM

Good question on that, and delving into those topics is yet another dimension in the study of these weapons. I would suggest good references on African crafts and textiles with focus on West Africa. These patterns often contain important tribal symbolism and even colors have key meanings in many cases.
A great book which deals a lot in the symbolisms in African material culture, though focused on jewelry, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. It is a huge volume but fantastically photographed and lots of fascinating detail on tribes and their traditional styles and effects .

blue lander · 28th March 2014, 07:54 PM

According to this site , there's a tradition of printed fabrics in Africa.

African print fabrics come from a batik tradition and were imported from Indonesia starting in the colonial period. On some piece there are still tags that reference "wax-resist" and/or "Java." Depending upon where you are on the continent this cloth can be referred to as lappa (Liberia, Sierra Leone), wrappa, pagne (Francophone West Africa), kanga (East Africa)

This site has several African prints that look somewhat similar to what's on this hilt.

25th March 2014, 11:07 PM	#8
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I bring it up because I'm not convinced it's origin is indigious or European, and its excessive bendiness is another point in the "indiginous" column. The deep, wide, straight hollow ground fuller is a point on the "European" side. Was this blade forged from scrap metal in west Africa post WWII, or was it made in the 1800's in Solingen or Chatellerault or Sheffield. Last edited by blue lander; 25th March 2014 at 11:19 PM.

27th March 2014, 03:36 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Some great questions here. Most notably, why in the world would a native armourer fabricate a hollow ground blade in European style, only to be dramatically ground down and cut down along with completely changing the tip? Further, why and how would they do that from scrap? The Manding regions expand throughout French West Africa, with those French occupied regions including Mauritania, Mali (French Sudan), French Guinea, Cote d' Ivoire, Burkina Faso, Dahomey and Niger. To the north were French occupied regions of Algeria, later Tunisia and Morocco. I do not find it surprising that with this presence throughout these regions that military sabre blades would become available to native armourers. It should be noted of course that while French blades were typically from French producers they were also widely from Solingen. In the case of this extremely 'worked' blade there is no longer the opportunity for normal identification from markings. It seems worthy to note as well that trade blades of course were heavily brought into North Africa through various points to be traded into Saharan and Sudanese regions, but these were typically broadsword blades, not sabre blades. I would mention again the Tuareg curved versions of the takouba (termed ajuinar) are known in Mali and another I have seen from Burkina Faso had a British curved sabre blade by MOLE. Others have been seen with marked French sabre blades, but as noted, these are not typically reduced down like this one. The distinct resemblance of the Manding sabre to the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' (and examples of these with curved blades) as noted do bring thoughts toward a connection. It would seem that any connections or similarities must have been transmitted through networking and of course not by direct contact with Omani merchants or slavers. I have pointed out influences between Zanzibar and as far as Morocco and of course Mali in the open cylindrical hilt of these sabres and the 'Zanzibar' sword and their similarities, but must admit these remain circumstantial. While Omani traders did not move inland, other Arab traders connected did set up bases and networks on the mainland. It is through these networks that I believe any influences must have been diffused. It is interesting that the Maasai sword with cylindrical hilt known as the seme' seems to have been in the direct path and regions of these networks. Attached Images

27th March 2014, 03:50 AM	#13
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I took some side by side photos to give a little more context. 1 side by side with a "scrap metal" Manding sword and an Austrian saber. 2 closeup of the scrap metal Manding sword and the Manding sword in question 3 closeup of Manding sword and Austrian saber 4 spine thickness of the two Manding swords, the scrap metal one being the thinner 5 Manding sword next to two other "converted" African daggers with European saber blades. Big one is a Shula, small one is some sort of ersatz koumyya relative I guess 6 closeup of all three blades. Edit: never mind, they all posted out of order. But you get the idea. The Manding blade isn't quite as refined as the other Euro blades and it doesn't have any patina to it. But it definitely was retipped in a very similar fashion to the Shula and the other dagger. And as Jim said, why would the Manding make the tip in one shape and then grind it into another shape? Attached Images

27th March 2014, 02:58 PM	#15
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	If it's a parade/dress saber that would explain the bending as well as how lightly built it is overall. And thank you as always for providing the historical context. I wonder why they altered the tip of the blade. It doesn't seem typical for Manding swords. Maybe the original tip snapped off and this is how they repaired it. I once saw an auction for an "African saber" that was a completely unaltered European saber with its original European style guard and hilt, but in a Manding style leather scabbard. I wish I had saved a picture. If that saber could have been identified by the shape of the guard, maybe it would tell us more about when and where the Manding got their blades. Assuming it wasn't an anomaly of course. Edit: never mind. I found the auction in my browser history and the scabbard looks like it's North African, not Manding. I must have misremembered. Here it is anyways. It looks quite a bit like a takouba scabbard, and the saber itself looks like a cheapo private purchase one rather than anything military issued. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 27th March 2014 at 03:12 PM.

27th March 2014, 07:22 PM	#17
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	You know, when I first saw a Manding cylindrical hilt I assume it was shaped that way for practical reasons rather than stylistic ones. Like, if you took a stick tang sword and wrapped leather around it to make a hilt, that's the shape you'd end up with. My other "scrap metal" Manding sword has a very different hilt construction. The tang is almost the full width of the blade. The end of the tang was folded back on top of itself to create a pommel. A leather cap covers it, but it's easily removed. I've seen quite a few similar swords go up for auction and they all appear to have a similar construction. The scabbards terminate in a tip like a European scabbard rather than the usual Manding style. The scabbards always feature woven multicolor leather. The blades are always blackened and extremely crude. The hilt is sometimes circular or sometimes dog bone shape, but there's never any metal furniture to it. Are these modern Manding swords made in a simpler style by less skilled artisans, or tourist pieces, or what? Attached Images

25th March 2014, 07:01 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Blade origin of Manding sword? I recently picked up this Manding sword and I'm curious about the origin of the blade. From a distance it looks like an old European saber, but up close it's very roughly finished. The blade shape is odd too, it looks it was reworked to have a pointy tip and and a false edge. If you run your hands down the side of the blade, it feels wavy, as if the thickness of the blade keeps changing. I wonder if it's a locally made approximation of a European saber blade, or if it's a saber that's been heavily worked over with a file and chisel? The blade's 25mm wide and 7mm thick at the hilt. The spine is square and also covered in file marks. Attached Images

25th March 2014, 07:10 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	These short sabres are nearly always native blades in my experience. They are somewhat rough and ready in finish but are actually very good quality blades. It would be very nice to learn more about there manufacture. Are they nomad/semi nomad production? What is the quality of the tools use? Are the anvils stone? and so much more.

25th March 2014, 07:18 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Interesting. I had read that they were usually French or British infantry sabers. But every time I see one go up for auction they seem to have locally made blades. I have another one that has a very crudely made blade that's still covered in scale and hammer marks. Interesting thing about the hilt and scabbard - the bottom of the scabbard is dried out and faded, while the upper scabbard and hilt are dark and shiny. I guess the body oil of the previous owner kept the leather in good condition.

25th March 2014, 08:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually the blades on these Manding sabres that I have seen often have military sabre blades, typically from French cavalry sabres which of course were prevalent in these regions . These typically came of course from French occupied areas and were often Solingen made, the name Holler on many of them . These blades often became mounted in the Tuareg curved form of the takouba termed the 'aljuinar' (as per data from Lee Jones). I have even seen English blades by MOLE in these. The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades. It would of course be hard to say exactly how this guardless hilt sabre form developed but since the Manding were primary factors of the trade routes and entrepots in Timbouctou and others they would have had considerable exposure to incoming influences. Since much of this trade was networked from as far as Zanzibar which was of course the key entrepot of the Omani Sultanate.It has long been my personal opinion that the cylindrical hilt well known with Omani merchants and their 'kattaras' may have travelled on these routes through the African interior, trans-Sahara and into Mali. While the distinct cylindrical type hilts developed in Muscat and in the case of available trade sabre blades became the curved version of these swords, perhaps the Manding version of these came from these, with the instance f using such trade or otherwise acquired European sabre blades. Years ago the compelling connections between the curious baselard like weapon with 'H' shape hilt termed the 'Zanzibar' sword by Demmin (1877) via Burton (1884) and corrected by Buttin (1933) ...and the Moroccan sboula were shown. Clearly these weapons were one in the same and connected via these same trade routes and entrepots. I have personally considered many African edged weapons to be 'reflective' of many outside influences, and becoming the now distinctive forms often regarded as indigenous to their respective regions.

25th March 2014, 08:48 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes the larger versions are always made from European sword blade. This example is a shorter lighter version.

25th March 2014, 10:33 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well that is not really like for like. State or rather rich empire manufacture verses semi desert nomads which is why I find them interesting.

25th March 2014, 11:18 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	While Im not well enough versed to describe the particulars, it is my understanding that one of the great innovations in blade production for swords which made German blades so successful was this process of hollow grinding the blade face rather than the drawn fullering. It seems this required certain machinery or equipment not typically found in more basic blacksmithing contexts. While this blade may be smaller, it has clearly been reworked and reprofiled and from the sound of the description quite a bit of stock removed. The very sharp point is of course not typical of these sabre blades. There is no affront whatsoever to native smiths concerning the comparison of this type blade to the other forms they normally produce. In fact, it is now well known that many blades of exceptional quality were indeed native produced when they had originally been thought to be European.

26th March 2014, 09:09 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Another reason for my doubts of a reworked European blade is, European blades are used and reworked on larger sabre and are clearly what they are. Also I find it hard to believe the sword makers would then make such an tidy conversion for smaller sabre. They might well be made from scrap iron. Perhaps your one is a little softer at the tip than others?

27th March 2014, 06:24 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Very nicely done Blue!!! Thank you for the excellent comparisons, most helpful. I think, as Ibrahiim has noted, this is indeed most likely a later 19th century European sabre blade, probably an officers, and as we have agreed, pretty savagely ground and reprofiled. The intact European sabre is most interesting, and indeed does have a Tuareg style scabbard, something I have honestly not seen used on an original European sword. This type of anomaly certainly does reinforce the profound availability of these European swords and blades throughout these regions. I think that determining the direction of diffusion and influence of certain forms of weapons, in this case pertaining of course primarily to the hilt, is quite difficult. As we know, blades can come from many sources, but the hilt is typically a locally applied style in the region from which it is provenanced. We have here a basic similarity in the cylindrical hilt style of the Manding sabre as well as the Omani kattara, which of course seems to have appeared around mid 18th century in Oman as Ibrahiim has well contended. While the kattara is of course typically known to carry the broadsword blades which were typically trade blades in the Red Sea sphere supplying the Sudan, it does seem that curved blades in the same circumstances afforded the appearance of sabre type versions. Returning to the Saharan regions of West Africa where the Manding sabres prevail, we must consider if other guardless and cylindrical style hilts are found in surrounding regions and of such presence that they became the hilt form now well known. If there is evidence that cylindrical style hilts were present in surrounding regions, and prior to the mid 18th century date of origin of the Omani kattara hilt, then we have plausibility for the theory of African origin of this hilt style. As trade and caravan routes are of course reciprocal, then the appearance of these cylindrical hilts on the Kenyan 'seme' swords could well have occurred via these routes in either direction. It is known that a certain cylindrical style hilt, quite basic as seen on the Algerian knives shown in Blue Landers illustrations (often using cut down sabre blades in the same fashion as this posted Manding sabre) is known in regions of Sierra Leone. These often have kaskara type trade blades, but it seems that most are from well into the 19th century, so may be considered 'reflectively' influenced from the hilts of the Manding and trade blades carried on trans Saharan routes. We may also consider that simple hilts, that is without guard system, are of course known in another expanse of the Saharan sphere, which is part of the Berber complex. That is in the Kabyle regions of Algeria and the sword is the flyssa . As far as has been determined, these intriguing hilts (the blades are almost invariably native) with stylized zoomorphic pommel, do not date much beyond early 19th century, so exceed any potential for influence. It is worthy of note however, that the flyssa does have a characteristically sharply pointed tip, which the posted Manding sword seems to reflect in degree in its reprofiled tip. Again , these comparisons do not help us with seeking origins on the hilt style. I would point out that Ottoman forces were present not only in North Africa but in Arabia. The Ottomans used for many centuries, men from Caucasian regions who not only were in the Janissaries but Mamluks in Egypt . Perhaps the weapons of these men, which of course included yataghans and shashkas, presented the idea of a simpler form of hilt? I think this would support the idea that these hilts might have developed in Arabia and transmitted westward via the trade venues.

27th March 2014, 11:20 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That hilt strongly reminds me of the Sierra Leone swords I mentioned, which of course would not have been confined to that region but as always collectors have to put some kind of label on it. It is known that European type sabres have been in use throughout West Africa into modern times, so seeing these type of chape sleeves is not surprising . What you are saying is systematically correct, fashioning a grip or hilt that is serviceable is a simple affair, so a rounded handle would serve well. It is of course understandable that a weapon being at least somewhat a status item one would not want just a crude lump of wood, so design and decoration would be employed accordingly . I tend to dislike the cavalier description of 'tourist' item for ethnographic weapons at large as in many, possibly even most cases, these weapons are used in at least some degree as traditional accoutrements among tribal peoples. I think these somewhat crudely fashioned items fall into that traditional category, while the touristy items are obviously too fragile and focused on bling for combat or actual use. In many of these regions, edged weapons (often collectively termed machetes by journalists) are indeed still used.

28th March 2014, 04:24 AM	#19
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I'll have to read up more on Sierra Leone and its swords. I've attached a picture of the rolled up end of the tang, which I thought was pretty clever. I've always wondered what the pattern on the fabric is from. It looks like it used to be covered in black leather so it wasn't mean to be seen. Attached Images

28th March 2014, 05:28 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Good question on that, and delving into those topics is yet another dimension in the study of these weapons. I would suggest good references on African crafts and textiles with focus on West Africa. These patterns often contain important tribal symbolism and even colors have key meanings in many cases. A great book which deals a lot in the symbolisms in African material culture, though focused on jewelry, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. It is a huge volume but fantastically photographed and lots of fascinating detail on tribes and their traditional styles and effects .

28th March 2014, 07:54 PM	#21
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	According to this site , there's a tradition of printed fabrics in Africa. African print fabrics come from a batik tradition and were imported from Indonesia starting in the colonial period. On some piece there are still tags that reference "wax-resist" and/or "Java." Depending upon where you are on the continent this cloth can be referred to as lappa (Liberia, Sierra Leone), wrappa, pagne (Francophone West Africa), kanga (East Africa) This site has several African prints that look somewhat similar to what's on this hilt.