Pamor Identification ?

[Rick]

Is this a variation on Unthuk Banyu ?
I have (which is typical for me ) forgotten the name .

[Alam Shah]

Rick, it's pamor Lar Gangsir.

[Rick]

Thanks Alam Shah !
Maybe you could share an opinion over in the 'Definitive Warfare' thread in Ethno .

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I`d be happy with "lar gangsir".

But ten years ago I might have called it either kenanga ginubah, or ganggeng kanyut, and if I asked half a dozen different people, all with good keris knowledge, in Solo, I might get replies that covered those three pamors, plus a couple of others. Take it to East Jawa and ask half a dozen people there and I might get half a dozen different answers.

This is a good clear example of pattern welding.
Imagine how much more confusing things a can get when the pattern is either indistinct or worn. In these cases it is probably necessary to have an understanding of how various pamors are created, in order to attempt to fathom exactly what the maker was trying to produce.

The point I am trying to make is that most things to do with keris terminology cannot be taken as carved in stone.

I like "lar gangsir" for it, but if somebody wanted to call it something different, I wouldn`t argue with them.

[Marcokeris]

Is it possible to see any pictures where i can see the real difference between pamor lar gansir and pamor ganggeng kanyut?

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, this is often a matter of interpretation, or understanding.

The picture that Rick published could be shown to a number of people of my acquaintance, in Solo, in Central Jawa, and would most likely be called "ganggeng kanyut", or "kenanga ginubah". I`m not talking about people who do not understand keris here, but about people above middle age with much keris experience. In reality, on the ground, in everyday discussion, people tend not to be particularly pedantic with pamor identification.

As an example, pamor wos wutah has a number of variations, but people handling and dealing with keris on a day to day basis will almost invariably refer to all these variations simply as "wos wutah".

Then you can get variations in names for the same pamor when you move from one location to another.

If one moves into a Javanese keris study group, pamors will be defined much more closely than they are by the people involved in the keris trade, but then the question arises as to just how accurate these definitions are, and whether they are accepted universally, or only within one study group or another.

To address your specific question.
One of the Tammens books has diagrams of pamor patterns, and these are quite useful, because they give a guide to the overall characteristics to be found in a particular pamor pattern.
The "Keris Jawa" book that has been discussed in another thread gives excellent (computer enhanced ?) drawings showing various pamors, which would be useful where a pamor has been cleanly and perfectly executed, but might not be so useful where a pamor is less than perfect.