Scottish Dirk from Anne

[Bill M]

Anne got me this neat Scottish Dirk for a birthday present. Came from a good friend of ours who lives in England. I don't have anything like this though I am descended from the Wilson Clan and have that heritage.

The handle is offset so it could be comfortably carried in a sock or boot.

It was made by James McLay Glasgow gunmaker, cutler and ironmonger at 4 Candlerigs in Glasgow, Scotland as of 1812, based on an entry in Walter M'Feat's Glasgow Directory 1799-1827.

Probably made from "shear steel."















Anne has been suggesting that it would really "fit best" in her "kitchen gallery." While we both like edged weapons, she likes the smaller knives. Maybe I'll let her "borrow" it.

And maybe for her birthday, I'll get her an outboard motor.

[David]

I nice and interesting knife that you obviously have very good provenence on, but is it reall a "dirk". It certainly doesn't follow the form i am familar with or what is shown in the evolution of the dirk on this website:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

I nice and interesting knife that you obviously have very good provenence on, but is it reall a "dirk". It certainly doesn't follow the form i am familar with or what is shown in the evolution of the dirk on this website:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

Good "point" as Battera would say.

You are certainly correct, the dirks do have a different blade. I looked at your link and can see that, so should we just call it a "dagger?" Or something else?

[Ferguson]

A knife maybe? Perchance a bolo, or a sundang?

A knife by any other name would look as sweet.

Either way, a sweet piece!

steve

[Jim McDougall]

Very handsome Scottish knife, especially in that it is nicely marked.....having the maker established in that period a definite plus!
These small knives that were often carried in the stocking were typically called skean dubh ,which loosely translated from Gaelic meant dark or black knife, not that they were necessarily black. The dirks were of course much larger and often crafted from baskethilt blades.
Nicely done Anne!! You're a lucky guy Bill!!! on both counts
All the best,
Jim

[David]

Jim, you might be right, sgian dubh might be the right name here, but without demensions i was a little uncertain about the actual size of this knife. How big is it Bill? (the knife i mean )

[kronckew]

bill, looks familiar somehow still looks nice.

for the rest of y'all for reference, here's one i posted earlier that appears to be made out of the tip of a sword blade whose age/provenance i do not know, also with knobbly stag, and it's little 5in bladed great grandson skian dubh with a guard.

[rand]

Hey Bill,

The Scottish arms have always been a favorite of mine...... Your birthday present dagger has a great mark of "Mclay" stamped on the blade that adds so much character and history to a knife. The off-set handle was a good point to mention as it does improve the comfort of carrying in different manners. The color of the stag horn handle is also appealing as its showing its color change with time. Enjoy your new dagger.....

What is "shear steel"?

rand

[asomotif]

Bill,

I will surely show this thread to my wife, X-mas comming in sight real soon

As for the use of the knife. The shape looks nice for cutting small vegetables, but it probably needs some sharpening which I am not in favour of.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

bill, looks familiar somehow still looks nice.

for the rest of y'all for reference, here's one i posted earlier that appears to be made out of the tip of a sword blade whose age/provenance i do not know, also with knobbly stag, and it's little 5in bladed great grandson skian dubh with a guard.

When you say 5" are you referring to overall or just the blade.A 5" blade would seem a bit excessive for a sgian dubh.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, here's my sghian dubh, made this a couple of years ago, it's my work knife now. Damascus blade, shagreen scabbard, bog oak hilt with brass fittings and Iona marble. I think your sghian dubh is a "daytime wear" piece Bill, antler hilted blades were worn during the day, more elaborate pieces were for formal occasions (that antler hilt is awesome!) I'm of Maclean descent myself...

[Jim McDougall]

Amazing set there Kronckew! The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!
OK OK I know, a guy could get kilt for cracks like that!! Just kidding.
Usually I dont get that goofy unless I've had a respectable bit of Drambuie,as in the incident several years ago that led to the unfortunate tulwar waving incident. This event took out the ceiling fan in my den!

Seriously though, I agree with David on the size of the sgian dubh, as most of these were 3-4 " , but later examples, who knows. The antler hilted knife really is attractive, and unusual. It was quite common to utilize broken basket hilt blades to fashion many of these, and these items together comprise the 'gralloch' set for hunting use in butchering and skinning.

Its great to see Scottish weapons posted, they dont come up too often here, although they indeed are within the ethnographic scope.

I always thought the spelling on these was interesting, Dubh = black or dark.
When working on my family geneology I discovered that the correct Gaelic spelling of my name was MacDhubghaill. I decided to leave it like it is obviously....people have enough trouble pronouncing it as it is!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Bill

That is a sweet little knife. It probably is a companion knife to a larger hunting sword or half of a trousse set of eating utensils?

Congrats

Lew

[t_c]

That's a nice little blade.
I have heard that skean dubh were named so due to the fact that they were a "boot" knife and meant for a stab in the back vs. what one might regard as a fair fight, hence the "dark" connotation, but the ones I have seen (modern pieces) are usually made with a black or dark wood handle which makes me wonder. Anyone know the meaning or history behind the name?

Rand:
I believe "shear steel" implies that it was forged from an old pair of shears, but I'm not sure on this.

[Pukka Bundook]

Nice little useful knife Bill.

I believe the "black knife was named so, because of the colour of the hilt,...normally black wood. Nothing to say antler is wrong though!

Skian dubh was I think a small utility knife, that would be used for eating, gralloching your deer, or whatever, and that in later years was worn for display in top of the stocking (sock!.)

I read somewhere that originally they were often carried inside the waiscoat.

If you wish to duplicate this nice aged antler colour, leather dye in medium or dark brown will do a very fair job.

TC,
Shear steel is I believe a type of cast steel, much used for cutlery and saws.


Richard.

[David]

Lemmy, i am surprised that no one has commented yet on your sgian dubh. Really beautiful job. thanks for showing it.
What are it's demensions?

[spiral]

Its a lovely old piece Bill...

Fellows, Shear steel is steel made from carbonised iron bars that were then sheared in half & forge welded together. It was the traditional steel in for British swords & knives before cast steel was invented.{it was still used for some select knives by a couple of makers makers up untill early 20th century.}

So essentialy it a European damascus steel , that was never designed to be etched. It was forge welded to get the desired qualitys, then highly polished.If the pattern showed it was regarded as poor workmanship.

If the rods were cut & folded twice its "double shear steel." That was usualy used for butchers & abatoir knives.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent explanation on the shear steel Spiral! I was wondering more on that as it was mentioned, and yours was exactly the kind of info I was hoping for.
This definitely eliminates my visual of using old scissor blades!

I reviewing the thread I must agree with David, Lemmy's sgian dubh is indeed a beautiful example!!! These intriguing knives are definitely now on my Christmas list!

The 'dhub' in the term as noted denotes black or dark, and has more to do with the term dark in the 'hidden' connotation as 'in darkness'. These small daggers were apparantly often worn near the pit of the arm in a small sheath, and as a mark of good faith were typically moved to the stocking in plain view when in good company. Eventually during the 'Romantic Period' of Victorian times, the sgian dubh became a standard element of Scottish regalia worn in the stocking.

It is true that the extremely dark bogwood or other dark wood was often used in the hilts of these, and these were mostly for dress or more formal wear. The antlers or lighter hilts I understand were considered more for utility or day wear.

While on the topic of wood used for Scottish hilts, I am curious whether the 'dudgeon' wood that became descriptive in reference to a particular type of Scottish dagger or knife might have also found use in these. The different terms for these woods is puzzling, and I believe boxwood is another term for the dudgeon.

Best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David

When you say 5" are you referring to overall or just the blade.A 5" blade would seem a bit excessive for a sgian dubh.

the blade is 4.75" & 1.25 wide at the guard, it's only 1/8 in. or so thick but the back is nicely file worked in lines and scallops for 4in. down the spine like a lot of skean dubh & scots weaponry, the last 3/4 in. is double edged. the grip is 4.375", it has an oval guard 1.5x0.75x.125 there is a circular non-magnetic white metal pommel inset into the end of the stag. the blade appears to be hardened stainless steel in that there is no sign of any corrosion or patina, same on the guard & bolster, my magnet is strongly attracted to them tho. i do not think there is any age to this knife. i used the term skean dubh a bit tongue in cheek as it is a bit big tho i've seen 5in. skean dubh blades from custom makers, they probably are normally around 3.5 in., and the guard is not a feature of the black knives i've seen. i still like it tho. i think it's a skean, the dubh part is unlikely .

the longer one is fairly basic, the spine is essentially straight tho the last 4in. or so depart upwards about an eighth of an inch to give a slight overall curvature, there is a slight swelling of the blade thickness just as it enters the stag. i am not sure what kind of tang it has bit the end of the grip has a small peened steel pin that may be the end of the tang. the blade is 17.25in. long, grip just under 3.5in. and blade is 15/16in. wide at the grip, & about 3/16in thick (roughly 5mm) & is quite springy, distally tapering down, the last 4-5 in. has a false edge on the spine.. the fullers are forged in, not ground. scabbard did not survive unfortunately.

[A. G. Maisey]

This knife of Bill's is a very nice, and quite elderly piece, but I do not believe that it can be named as either a dirk or a sgian dubh.

The Scottish dirk seems to owe its origin to the ballock knife and dudgeon dagger, the first distinctively Scottish variation of this form probably occurred in the 16th century, but the earliest dated examples of the Scottish variation only date from the early 17th century. One of the distinctive features of dudgeon daggers and ballock knives is the blade, which is not offset from the hilt, but continues in a straight line with it. The blades of even early dirks appear to be uniformly symmetrical, however, even though this blade symmetry is not always present in the sgian dubh, the hilt of the sgian dubh is invariably not offset from the blade.

The sgian dubh appeared later than the dirk, and the first appearance of it in a work of art appears to be in an 1806 portrait by Reaburn. The fore-runner of the sgian dubh was very possibly the oxter knife, or sgian achlais, which was worn inside the jacket, under the left armpit. It was only when the sgian achlis moved from the left armpit, to the right stocking that it became known as the sgian dubh. In fact, the sgian dubh is not a part of the old Highland inheritance, but rather a product of the romantic Celtic era of the early 19th century.

Another theory for the origin of the sgian dubh is that it was an adaptation of the smaller of the two knives used for field dressing of game. These knives were purely work knives, used by the lord's gamekeeper, and were known as gralloch knives.

As to whether the name sgian dubh refers to the supposedly dark nature of the knife, or to its colour, it seems that historians of Scottish weaponry have not yet reached agreement.

As noted above, one of the identifying features of both dirk and sgian dubh is that the hilt is centrally mounted to the blade.

Bill's knife has an offset blade, thus it cannot be either a small dirk, nor a large sgian dubh.

It is too small to be the larger of a set of gralloch knives, and of an inconvenient form to serve as a skinning knife, which was the function of the smaller of the gralloch knives.

In my opinion it is a good quality 19th century knife by a Scottish maker, probably intended as a general purpose field knife.

I am not expert in the field of Scottish weaponry, and in fact know almost nothing about it, however, some years ago I made a number of sgian dubh, and to ensure accuracy of what I made I researched this little knife. Before writing the above I referenced my source again:- Forman---The Scottish Dirk---ISBN 0-919316-26-3.

Incidentally, yes, dark boxwood was known as "dudgeon", and was the most popular wood used for the hilt of the ballock dagger. Shakespeare and Ben Jonson began using the term "dudgeon dagger" to refer to ballock knives.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi David, my sghian dubh is about 7" overall, total weight about 2 ounces for that lightweight, won't drag your sock down feel

I've read somewhere that ivy root was apparently also used for ballock knife hilts.

Another possible origin of the sghian dubh is that after the '45 the Scots were disarmed by the English, and highlanders being highlanders ("they spend all their time in war and when there are no wars they fight one another") wanted to be armed so a small utility knife was carried, as Alan said, under the armpit or oxter-this knife evolved into the sghian dubh we know today.

[Battara]

I have seen other Scottish knives than the dirk or sgian dubh. This is nice.


And as far as Jim's comment:"OK OK I know, a guy could get kilt for cracks like that!!" Please don't apologize - I thought it was great (I cried from joy reading it ).

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Battara!!! I thought I was invisible!!!
I owes ya a Drambuie when I see ya next!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!

Jim

I don't know why Jim, but every time you post you fire up a memory that keeps me up until I follow it through??? Must be that free association thing.

Your observation above may not be as far fetched as you think! Rev J. A. Wylie in his History of the Scottish Nation London 1886 devotes chapter 20 in Volume I to "The Cradle of the Scots in Scythia". As you know it is the descendants of the Scythians that are the shashkaophiles (if that is a word).
A few quotes of Wylie's such as "Almost all ancient testimony points to Scythia as the original cradle of the Scottish race." He goes on to explain that both the names Scots and Scyths signify the the same thing namely an archer or bowman.
Further... "King Alfred, in his translation of Bede, and other writers of that time, use Scytisk for Scottish, so that Scyt and Scot were synonymous. Several of the classic writers do the same thing, making use of Scythia and Scotia and Scyth and Scot alternatively. The Irish writers uniformly say that the Scots were Scythians... "
I have absolutely no idea if his theorys still hold water, and I doubt that this is usefull in any way, but, At least now I can go to bed

All the Best
Jeff

[kronckew]

the celts, of which the scots (and maybe scythians) were members, had a broad range from the steppes thru to ireland and on south to iberia, galetia in southern poland, 'gaul' in france and galetia in northern spain were all celtic. in some respects more advanced than their roman neighbors who feared them. they were not 'civilised' in the original meaning , they did not live in cities, 'civis', but had a village and tribal based confederation. the romans proceeded to demolish that, and the results were written down by the romans, not the celts, so our knowledge of them is reduced.

my maternal grandmother was an austrian galetian from somewhere between cracow and vienna. that area is one of the most fought over areas of the world, and the term 'ethnic cleansing' should have originated there. the scythians were likely celts, one of the recent 'king arthur' films used scythian archers as auxilliary troops stationed at hadrians wall as the arthurian knights and woad painted celts as their allies against the saxon (sax meaning 'sword', the 'angles' were spearmen - they eventually mingled into the anglo-saxons) invaders as rome pulled back the legions. might be closer to tha mark than we think (i'm looking forward to the latest 'last legion' flick when i can get to see it.)

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

Jim, you might be right, sgian dubh might be the right name here, but without dimensions i was a little uncertain about the actual size of this knife. How big is it Bill? (the knife i mean )

Yark, yark! (dry laugh, don't try to translate from some obscure language)

The knife is about 7" long

Thanks for all the great replies. I have learned a lot from all, but Particularly from Alan and Spiral.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff!!
Thats amazing! I had never heard of that particular reference to Scythians and Scots, and perhaps Kronckew's comment on the Celtic association may concur with that intriguing anthropology. I cant believe the amazing references you seem to have command of!!! Outstanding!

I was of course kidding with the shashka note, and absolutely delighted with this very fascinating information you have brought in! Hey, maybe this Drambuie stuff really works!! .....but now you've really triggered it, and I'll be the one not sleeping I thought I had finished the old MacDhubghaill geneology but looks like theres a whole new dimension.

Thanks so much Jeff!

Bill,
I've learned a lot on this thread too, especially with Jeff's note on an aside from the knife itself and Kronkews addition, and as you note with Spirals great note on sheared steel. Alan's comments are as always extremely well placed and insightful, and I especially appreciate his attention to my questions on dudgeon and boxwood. In all, great input from everyone on the thread, and again, I'm really glad that you shared this interesting example to initiate this thread!! Thank you very much.

All best regards,
Jim