MYTH OF THE GURKHA PERSONEL KUKRI CARRY PART TWO

[sirupate]

Sorry about this gentlemen, but as a friend pointed out to me that the original thread had become so distorted and hard to follow, with new subjects being introduced by Jonathan, that it might be better to re-start it from before the introduction of the new subjects, so it will be easier to follow.

Sirupate post 28; I would think that it would be very hard indeed to argue against not only Gurkhas, but British Gurkha Officers who were there and done the business. They should know exactly what they are talking about, especially the likes Major General Mike Callan, who not only served with the Gurkhas, but also in the Royal Army Ordnance, etc. and the likes of Lt. Col. JP Cross, renowned Gurkha Officer, and Gurkha author, who is the only non Nepalese to be granted permision to have his own land and property in Nepal, by the Royal Family.

Spiral reply, post 30;But just to add to Simons confusion. I always liked this bit published in 1952 in Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. {I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.}

"The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply."

Sirupate post 33;
Certainly one battalion went France, the 2/8th were almost wiped out at Loos, of the 500 men in the attack, only 1 BO, 1 GO, and 49 rifleman were left! The 1/8th GR were involved in Mesopotamia campaign at Kut.
A rare book Jonathan, and if that is the quote it is wrong indeed;
1. A question to Lt. Col, JP Cross (noted Gurkha Officer, Gurkha Historian and author) on 3/12/2008; With the issued kukri in WWII, would you say the kukri was produced as weapon first and a utility blade second?
Answer from JP; Weapon every time but also I think you will find that the Tripartite treaty lays it down, or if it doesn't the Maharaja did, that the kukri being a national weapon it HAD to be carried by every soldier. Otherwise the Indian Army then and the British Army later would not have bothered to arrange for their production or issue.
JP also siad in further correspondence, that the quality of the Battalion/Regimental kukri depended what the battalion was prepared to spend on each kukri for issue.
2. They would already have had Battalion issue kukri
3. A quote from You (Jonathan) on 10/11/2008 on IKRHS;
'Its definatly a mk.1 issue kukri blade, is the end of the tang still threaded?
I would say the numbers mean that it belonged to soldier number 108 in the 2nd battalion of the 8th regiment of the Gurkha rifles in WW1. Spiral'
Since when have Gurkhas or any other members of the Indian or British army had to to pay for their own Government Issue kit?4.The statement not only breaks the agreement with Nepal about the supply and carry of kukri, I can't imagine Gurkhas being suddenley told that they had to pay for their entitled kukri, being to chuffed, especialy after what happened to them at Loos!
5. It fly's in the the face of what every single Gurkha, and serving WW2 Gurkha Officer, and every other book says about kukri and issue, even in the Gurkha Museums own book about the Kukri in WW1!!
6. Below are three issued 8th GR kukri of mine;
WW2 top
2/8 GR WW1 middle (Plus of course the 2/8th GR WW1 Government issue Mk1 picture on IKRHS)
Pr-WW1 bottom


A quote from You (Jonathan) on 10/11/2008 on IKRHS;
'Its definatly a mk.1 issue kukri blade, is the end of the tang still threaded?
I would say the numbers mean that it belonged to soldier number 108 in the 2nd battalion of the 8th regiment of the Gurkha rifles in WW1. Spiral'
Since when have Gurkhas or any other members of the Indian or British army had to to pay for their own Government Issue kit?
So Jonathan, how does this fit in with Lt. Col. Huxley's statement?

Link to Mk1 Government Issue kukri to the 2/8th
http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=449

[sirupate]

Originally posted by Spiral;
Heres Andy Taylors kukri obtained from his long time friend Peter Prentice MBE ex Gurkha rifles officer & his statement about it.

This is Peter's khukri that he carried with him during his time in the Ghurka Rifles. As I mentioned officers weren't issued with khukris but his men presented him with this to use in the field. It was used through the whole time he spent in French Indo China. The jungle warfare scenario would have contributed to its condition. The hilt cracked and he said one of his men effected a battlefield repair with some wire. The hilt also has a chunk out of the end and the aluminium butt plate is loose. There is only one chakma and this has a square edge for honing. You will also notice that the surface is rough and this was used with a flint to make fire. Peter said the flint was kept in the leather pouch, which you will notice that the stitching has rotted. The small pointy stick was a puzzle and I assumed it was for making shavings to start a fire. Peter told me it was his tooth pick and tooth brush. He said the wooden and bristle army issue toothbrushes rotted quickly in the damp atmosphere and if a bit of stick was good enough for the men of Nepal for God knows how long it worked for him!


Its clearly a ww2 era villiger piece from Nepal or heavily Nepali influnced & garrisoned areas {such as Darjeeling perhaps}, & interesting that the riflemenmen gave their esteemed officer such a clearly private purchase village kukri & that they had it ready to hand when official issue kukris would have been so easily obtainable from army stores? & they {the gurkha ranks.] clearly thought such a piece made a more valid piece to present to an Officer for field carry.they clearly valued such a fast & balenced native piece more highly than the officail pattern issue mk.w2 or mk.3 at the time.

But one can make thier own deductions, from thios I am sure.

Interestingly many people dont realise the British army & Gurkha regiments used many captured Japanese prisoners of war {including officers.}, by rearming them in 45,46,to help quell the native desire for independance in areas like malaya & vietnam etc. in that difficult period. That always seemed so cynical & incorrect to me to use such people, given the circumstances, but I guess goverments always do what they will to control the masses.

spiral

[sirupate]

Jonathan; This is Peter's khukri that he carried with him during his time in the Ghurka Rifles. As I mentioned officers weren't issued with khukris but his men presented him with this to use in the field. It was used through the whole time he spent in French Indo China.

So this is actualy what Andy Taylor said, not Peter Prentice.
Some points here about this statement.
1. We are now talking about Officers kukri, not Riflemans kukri.
2. Gurkhas presenting kukri to Officers (more often than not armourer made) is not exactly unusual, there are several in the Gurkha museums, Edingburgh museum etc etc, so what is new?

Jonathan; As I mentioned officers weren't issued with khukris

7th GR British Officer Major Deny’s Drayton (7th GR WWII) who fought in North Africa and ended up at Monty Casino, said 'That Gurkhas only carried IA issue kukri which had wooden handles that were of *stick tang construction, and no private kukri were carried’. He aslo said that he carried his issue kukri.

My answer from post 16, in the original debate;British Gurkha Officer carry in WW2
First of all not all British Offices carried kukri as JP recalls “I never carried a kukri, along with several other British Officers”
However many did; such as Major-General M. Callan who used a Quarter Master issued kukri, as he recalls “I am sure I wore a kukri in combat uniform, a QM issue like everybody else in the battalion, which must have been 90% ‘hostilities only’ enlistments apart from only one BO (the CO) and GOs and older ORs from pre-war” .
Major-General Mike Callan sent details of his kukri, and they are as follows;
“I have dug out my old issue kukri from the garden shed. It has been used as a utility tool in the garden, just as a Gurkha would. (You know of course that the common belief that kukris can only be drawn to shed blood is complete nonsense). Mine is now very battered and rusty, but after reading your notes I took a closer look at it. The first thing is that it has no maker's mark, and seems to differ from the ones you described.
The dimensions are: Length from tip of blade to tip of handle - 42 cm. From the tip of blade to the start of the angle (approx 15 degrees) on back of blade - 19.5 cm, and from there to the join at handle - 12.5 cm. Depth of blade at widest part - 5.3 cm, and thickness of blade at back before it tapers down towards the point - 7 mm.
The hardwood handle is 10.5 cm long, with a steel plate on the end, and has two steel bands round (to prevent splitting) and is secured to the blade by two rivets. The centre of the handle is carved to provide the grip. It is a nicely balanced weapon with a good "feel”. The weight is 548 gms.”
Since the correspondence Major-General Mike Callan kindly sent me down his kukri so I could handle it and document it for myself. It is very similar to one in the GM, which has a different Kaudi and brass rings and butt plate.
Major-General M. Callan IA QM issue kukri from WWII;

[sirupate]

Another part of my answer in post 16;Chas and some other Officers had their kukri made by the armourers; Captain C. McCalla recalls “…have my own kukhris which were made for me by the (Regimental) armourer in Dharamsala”. I have only seen pictures of Captain McCalla’s kukris and the one he carried not only looks like a very nice and well made kukri, it also has as Captain McCalla points out, the perfect balance for a kukri.
When asked why some Officers carried Quarter Master issue kukri, some not at all and some like himself who had kukri made for himself this was his explanation regarding his Battalion “Not all Officers went to the Regtl Centre & therefore wore issue kukri from the QM. Many Officers were commissioned in India & joined Gurkha Regiments (seconded from Brit Army & were never in the Indian Army). Others like myself were commissioned in UK & volunteered to join a Gurkha Regt. We were then gazetteered straight into the Indian Army proper.”
A picture of one of Chas's Gurkhas (No.1 Bren, No2 had just been killed) after some fighting in Abya;

And here are Chas's kukri;

[sirupate]

Posted by Jonathan, Andy White talking about Peter Prentice's kukri; It was used through the whole time he spent in French Indo China.

Indo China is well covered in JP's book 'First in Last Out'.
In the Potsdam Conference in July 1945 it was agreed to divide it into to two, Northern Sphere to the Chinese, and the Southern Sphere to the British.
The Emperor announced Japanese Surrender on August 14th 1945, on September the 2nd in Tokyo Bay, they signed the Surrender papers on the Battle Ship Missouri.
Once peace had been declared, during September the Gurkhas being the first in went to Indo China on the 12th September.

Question Jonathan; Which battalion and regiment was Peter Prentice in? and when did he join?

Jonathan; Its clearly a ww2 era villiger piece from Nepal or heavily Nepali influnced & garrisoned areas {such as Darjeeling perhaps}, & interesting that the riflemenmen gave their esteemed officer such a clearly private purchase village kukri & that they had it ready to hand when official issue kukris would have been so easily obtainable from army stores? & they {the gurkha ranks.] clearly thought such a piece made a more valid piece to present to an Officer for field carry.they clearly valued such a fast & balenced native piece more highly than the officail pattern issue mk.w2 or mk.3 at the time.

Jonathan that is all suposition, it could just as easily have been made by the armourers for him, on request of his orderly, who knows?

[sirupate]

Jonathan; My Quote from Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official Regimenal history 8th GR; Is an accurate quote

However it does remain a mystery as to why they should pay one minute for their kukri and not the next? You can imagine the banter between the Gurkhas LOL

Also I had a great chat with Col. Horsford of the 8th Gurkha Rifles the other day and I asked him about Lt. Col. Huxfords statement; Col. Horsford "he wrote an excellent Regimental History of the 8th. But that doesn't seem right about the Gurkhas having to pay for their own kukri"
I then asked him if the 8th Gurkha's were issued kukri in WW1; Col. Horsford, "yes, absolutely"

Jonathan; its not a blanket statement meaning evry kukri at evry time & evry place was always payed for by the inlisted men! What makes you think its a blanket statement?

Where did you read that I did Jonathan?

Jonathan; After all I mentioned them making kukris out of found scrap in 1944, obviously they wernt paying for those either!

I should hope not Jonathan, good to see the battalion armourers making kukri when required, much like the 2/10 in WW1.

Jonathan; The above quote by myself is from. linky... There thats not difficult is it Simon

Already done here Jonathan

You want more free kukri knowledge from me Simon? O Well just this time.. kukri were first offcialy autherised for the 8th GR in 1881, before then they were always private purchase & carried unofficialy but obviosly sanctioned & allowed.

It is funny how you assume that Jonathan, indeed your quote I am sure is not deliberately misleading, but unless it comes with the full background it can be accidentley misleading.
1. The 1st Battalion were not 8th GR until 1903, and it wasn't until 1886 they even had Goorkha in their title, From 1864-1885 they were the 44th (Sylhet) Regiment of Bengal Native (Light) Infantry.
Certainley in the early period it could compromise of the following, A company could be Jats, Bcompany could be Hindustani Rajputs, C company could be Hillman from Nepal; and so on, so hardly a Gurkha unit by any means, indeed in 1881 in the 9th Bengal Native Infantry (later 9th GR), there were no Gurkha caste at all in the regiment!!!
2. The 2nd Battalion also didn't have Goorkha in it's title until 1886, when it was called 43rd Regiment Goorkha Light Infantry, and in 1907 the then 7th GR became the 2/8th GR! and 8th GR became the 1/8th GR!
3. Although as far back 1861 there was the 1st Goorkha Regiment (later 1st GR) and the 2nd Goorkha Regiment (later 2nd GR), even they were not avowedly Gurkha caste for a while. It was not until 1893 that the Bengal Army decided to fully convert the sixteen "Hindustani" Infantry Regiments into caste units!! Something that had been avowdley recommened by Captain Eden Vansittart of the 5th GR, for some time.
4. So the equiping of the 44th (Sylhet) Regiment of Bengal Native (Light) Infantry in 1881 with kukri, may be a reflection of the regiment becomming more avowedly Gurkha Caste?
5. This also fits in with Nepal becoming more co-operative in the recruitement of the then considered Gurkha castes (Gurung, Magar and Khas), although in the Treaty of Segauli they couldn't recruit from the Royal Bodygaurd. The Maharaja Sir Bir Shamsher Jang Bahadur Rana and General Chandra Shamsher then agreed in 1886 to co-operate fully with the recruitement of the then considered Gurkha Caste, although it was not until 1890 that the Rai and Limbu were enlisted, and that was in the 1st Regiment of Burma Infantry, which finally became the 10th GR in 1901.

[sirupate]

In the divergence of the two threads, it might be lost who the authorative figures were that I quoted from, and recieved a great deal of information from, a huge thanks to these people who had real knowledge and experince of the Gurkhas in War and kukri carried;

Authorative people;
1. Lt. Col. JP Cross British Gurkha Officer; WW2, Malaya and Borneo, Gurkha Historian and author, who was heavily involved in the book for British Gurkha Officers 'Nepal and the Gurkhas'.

2. Captain C. McCalla; WW2 British Gurkha Officer, who whilst out on patrol took pictures of of his men.

3. QGO Bakansing Gurung; joined in 1933 1/6 GR served in WW2
"That none of his contemporaries had ‘private kukri’, all carried issued kukri".

4. QGO Bhaktasing MC, served in WW2 "They have not taken their own village kukri to the regiment. He has not taken any his own kukri from Nepal.
As far he concerned those days the strong iron and better kukris are made in Dehradoon and Kunraghat by Nepali expert Ironsmith for the Gurkhas issued kukri"

5. Major Deny’s Drayton Gurkhas Officer; WW2, N.Africa and Italy

6. Major-General Mike Callan; WW2 Gurkha Officer

7. Col. Horsford; WW2 Gurkha Officer

8. Captain D Harding; post WW2 Gurkha Officer and regimental historian and archivist for 10th GR, and weapons expert for the Gurkha Museum in Winchester, and heavily involved in the book '10th Gurkha Rifles, One Hundred Years'