unknown African saber - old Mandinka?

Roland_M · 10th October 2016, 07:14 PM

Hello all,

today I have this recently won African saber. I think it comes from North Africa, until now my researches are fruitless.

The blade looks european but it is very sure a local production, obviously inspired by an european saber. The ~70cm long blade is thin, flexible and very light. I cannot see any signs of lamination.
The construction of the scabbard is interesting, it has a wooden core, a thick layer of textiles and a cover made from leather. The piece seems to be very old, the scabbard including its wooden core is flexible like rubber.
The hilt is also filled with textiles and covered with leather.

At the end of the blade is a long pommel or hammer. The hammer/pommel was made from iron (almost non-magnetic) and was once completely covered with yellow metal, probably brass.

I'm unsure what I got and whether it is worth a restoration. Some tips what I could do with the lost leather at the hilt would be very useful. The blade has some remains of a bumbling restoration attempt with a Dremel or something like that. Thats a good reason for me to polish the blade back to ist original Beauty, because it was once finished very carefully, the surface is almost flat like a mirror.

Best wishes,
Roland

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2016, 07:38 PM

My guess would be Cameroon . I would clean the blade a bit, but I do not think you need to any more than dress the leather and perhaps stabalize the fabric with watered down pva. Do tests of varied % to get a protective coating without giving the fabric too much of a bloom and stiffness.

Sajen · 10th October 2016, 09:34 PM

Hi Mate,

here you can see swords with similar finals at the handle: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Cameroon

Regards,
Detlef

Roland_M · 11th October 2016, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Mate,

here you can see swords with similar finals at the handle: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Cameroon

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

thank you for the link, very interesting to read, that it is probably more from Central Africa.

Regards,
Roland

p.s. I hope your shoulder is in better condition now than two weeks ago.

Roland_M · 11th October 2016, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

My guess would be Cameroon . I would clean the blade a bit, but I do not think you need to any more than dress the leather and perhaps stabalize the fabric with watered down pva. Do tests of varied % to get a protective coating without giving the fabric too much of a bloom and stiffness.

Hello and thank you very much for your advises. I will try them out as soon as I have enough time and motivation.

Roland

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2016, 05:54 PM

For me, identification and classification of edged weapons from these western regions is a nebulous pursuit, as geographical borders are very much rigid opposed to tribal movements and diffusion of materials through trade are certainly not.
There is sometimes a certain resistance to realizing that 'West Africa' is far beyond the western littoral of Africa and extends that category well into Saharan regions including Mali, Burkino Faso et al. Equally unclear is the designator 'Sahel'. In the west, the 'Sudan' extends farther than often realized as well.
Use of these terms in classifications becomes sometimes as debated as the terms used for various weapons without the ever present conundrum of variation and hybridization from myriads of influences brought with trade and migrations of peoples.

Such is the case here, and in the accompanying threads discussing these obviously African swords, from the west, and reflecting these kinds of features and nuances from both congruent and distant origins.
Granted, this sword has 'Cameroon' possibilities, and in my experience, the dual discoid form on the hilt (rather a rondel like character) is seen on 19th c swords identified as from Sierra Leone.
The rest of the sword, the leather work, seems to call 'Mandinka', which is a tribal heading which traverses most of these geographic boundaries.

The blockish pommel, in this case chiseled nicely it appears, brings to mind the character of the pommels on Omani sa'if and kattara, and again begs the question of that notable influence from the other side of the Continent.
Can this feature have been transmitted these distances via trade routes in enough volume to exact this degree of influence? I think yes.
Certainly this pommel is exaggerated in comparison to those usually plain and cuboid types, but then such embellishment is often not only enhancement for a weapon perhaps to higher station, but to relegate a style to personalize it rather than just copy it.

As for restoration.....absolutely! but as always, with restraint. I think effort to retain as much original material is best. Often, though these weapons were refurbished sometimes almost endlessly, materials can sometimes retain the history and pedigree of them for study and interest.
Stop corrosion and repair damage to stop deterioration, but use every means to preserve the integrity of the piece.

Martin Lubojacky · 11th October 2016, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

For me, identification and classification of edged weapons from these western regions is a nebulous pursuit, as geographical borders are very much rigid opposed to tribal movements and diffusion of materials through trade are certainly not. ...........Granted, this sword has 'Cameroon' possibilities, and in my experience, the dual discoid form on the hilt (rather a rondel like character) is seen on 19th c swords identified as from Sierra Leone.
......

I think, that as far as sometimes difficult identification of swords from this western African region, Jim is absolutely correct.

Would also vote to half-breed between Mandingo and swords generally identified as from Sierra Leone, -- or some less comon variation from Sierra Leone/southern part of Guinea/Liberia region. I personally do not see any sign denotative that the sword is comming from Cameroon ....

Roland_M · 12th October 2016, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As for restoration.....absolutely! but as always, with restraint. I think effort to retain as much original material is best.

Hello and thank you very much for your comprehensive answer and explanation, they are very useful for me.

I will make the restoration as you said, with a minimum of changing of the original appearance.

10th October 2016, 07:14 PM	#1
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	unknown African saber - old Mandinka? Hello all, today I have this recently won African saber. I think it comes from North Africa, until now my researches are fruitless. The blade looks european but it is very sure a local production, obviously inspired by an european saber. The ~70cm long blade is thin, flexible and very light. I cannot see any signs of lamination. The construction of the scabbard is interesting, it has a wooden core, a thick layer of textiles and a cover made from leather. The piece seems to be very old, the scabbard including its wooden core is flexible like rubber. The hilt is also filled with textiles and covered with leather. At the end of the blade is a long pommel or hammer. The hammer/pommel was made from iron (almost non-magnetic) and was once completely covered with yellow metal, probably brass. I'm unsure what I got and whether it is worth a restoration. Some tips what I could do with the lost leather at the hilt would be very useful. The blade has some remains of a bumbling restoration attempt with a Dremel or something like that. Thats a good reason for me to polish the blade back to ist original Beauty, because it was once finished very carefully, the surface is almost flat like a mirror. Best wishes, Roland Attached Images

10th October 2016, 07:38 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	My guess would be Cameroon . I would clean the blade a bit, but I do not think you need to any more than dress the leather and perhaps stabalize the fabric with watered down pva. Do tests of varied % to get a protective coating without giving the fabric too much of a bloom and stiffness. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th October 2016 at 07:49 PM.

10th October 2016, 09:34 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hi Mate, here you can see swords with similar finals at the handle: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Cameroon Regards, Detlef

11th October 2016, 05:54 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	For me, identification and classification of edged weapons from these western regions is a nebulous pursuit, as geographical borders are very much rigid opposed to tribal movements and diffusion of materials through trade are certainly not. There is sometimes a certain resistance to realizing that 'West Africa' is far beyond the western littoral of Africa and extends that category well into Saharan regions including Mali, Burkino Faso et al. Equally unclear is the designator 'Sahel'. In the west, the 'Sudan' extends farther than often realized as well. Use of these terms in classifications becomes sometimes as debated as the terms used for various weapons without the ever present conundrum of variation and hybridization from myriads of influences brought with trade and migrations of peoples. Such is the case here, and in the accompanying threads discussing these obviously African swords, from the west, and reflecting these kinds of features and nuances from both congruent and distant origins. Granted, this sword has 'Cameroon' possibilities, and in my experience, the dual discoid form on the hilt (rather a rondel like character) is seen on 19th c swords identified as from Sierra Leone. The rest of the sword, the leather work, seems to call 'Mandinka', which is a tribal heading which traverses most of these geographic boundaries. The blockish pommel, in this case chiseled nicely it appears, brings to mind the character of the pommels on Omani sa'if and kattara, and again begs the question of that notable influence from the other side of the Continent. Can this feature have been transmitted these distances via trade routes in enough volume to exact this degree of influence? I think yes. Certainly this pommel is exaggerated in comparison to those usually plain and cuboid types, but then such embellishment is often not only enhancement for a weapon perhaps to higher station, but to relegate a style to personalize it rather than just copy it. As for restoration.....absolutely! but as always, with restraint. I think effort to retain as much original material is best. Often, though these weapons were refurbished sometimes almost endlessly, materials can sometimes retain the history and pedigree of them for study and interest. Stop corrosion and repair damage to stop deterioration, but use every means to preserve the integrity of the piece.