Solor stick sword for sharing & comment

[Sajen]

By my last trip to Indonesia I get a completely rustet stick sword from Solor (see Albert G. v. Zonnefeld, Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago, page 129). I have had removed most of the dark rust. After I have shown this sword to our member Roland M he offered a polish and etch of the blade. So a big "Thank" to him for the great job he have done. The blade show surprisingly a hamon at the edge. This blade is a high quality forged blade. Enjoy the pictures of this very rare weapon.

[Rick]

Hey!
I've got one of those babys.
Nice toa Detlef.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hey!
I've got one of those babys.
Nice toa Detlef.

Hello Rick,

yes, I know that you own such a rare sword. I have a second one, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=solor
Sadly this one still wait for restauration.
When you know how small the Solor Island is you can imagine that this swords are more as rare, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solor
I think that this swords are really treasures.

Regards,
Detlef

[kronckew]

nice, reminds me of a moro panabas.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kronckew

nice, reminds me of a moro panabas.

Yes, a similar weapon and for sure a similar use! Thank you!

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The blade show surprisingly a hamon at the edge.

I just ask: why is it surprising?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

I just ask: why is it surprising?

Hello Timo,

a hamon I know from dha but I have seldom seen it by Indonesian blades, most of the time this blades are laminated. To create a hamon is not easy and I am nearly sure that this blade wasn't forged by a local blacksmith from Solor.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Sajen

To create a hamon is not easy and I am nearly sure that this blade wasn't forged by a local blacksmith from Solor.

I had the same feeling about my example.
I wonder where they were sourced from if not of local manufacture?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

I had the same feeling about my example.
I wonder where they were sourced from if not of local manufacture?

A.G. Zonneveld write at the in up mentioned page about the stick swords from Flores which have a different blade shape : "Almost always these blades are imported from south-east Sulawesi, mostly from the Rumbia region, where swords of this type are called toa." But this blades are laminated so far I know.
Maybe Chinese blacksmithes?

Regards,
Detlef

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Timo,

a hamon I know from dha but I have seldom seen it by Indonesian blades, most of the time this blades are laminated. To create a hamon is not easy and I am nearly sure that this blade wasn't forged by a local blacksmith from Solor.

For low-tech metalwork (i.e., unknown carbon content, no thermometers or temperature controlled ovens), differential hardening can be easier than trying to achieve a uniformly non-brittle hard blade. If your blade is short enough so that edge quenching is practical, then all you need is a teapot full of water, e.g., as done for edge quenching of kukris (technically, you need the knowledge/experience to know what to do with the teapot full of water as well as the actual teapot).

[Royston]

Yes, I know, I am being greedy.

I have collected since the 70's and these are the only two I have ever seen. Both are horn, wood, horn although the horn is wrapped around the wood on the pommel end so I think they are one piece wooden hilts with horn decoration.

Sajen, I think you are correct about their rarity. Not surprising seeing the size of the Islands.

Regards
Roy

[Royston]

I forgot these two photos. Note how the pommel end shows wood with a thin layer of horn wrapped around it.

Roy

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

For low-tech metalwork (i.e., unknown carbon content, no thermometers or temperature controlled ovens), differential hardening can be easier than trying to achieve a uniformly non-brittle hard blade.

Hi Timo,

This blade is no low-tech metalwork, the blade is thin, tough, very sharp and absolutely flawless forged. This blade was forged by a master blacksmith. It is made from unknown type of crucible steel with very low contrast structure, possibly wootz. The high resistance against abrasion is an indicator.

A skillfull differential hardened blade has a very uniform hardness along the cutting edge. Differential hardening with clay on the blade is always more difficult than uniform hardening, especially if hardened in water. Many things are important like the temperature of water, the hardening time, the consistance and mixture of the clay and so on. The volume of hardened steel is bigger than unhardened steel, this causes tensions in the material. Even the best Japanese swordsmiths have lost blades during the hardening process because of hardening cracks (Hagire).

The temperature of hot steel can be controlled by its color. Well trained eyes do this with a precision of +- 10°C.


Roland

[Timo Nieminen]

"Low-tech" is not the same as "unskilled" or "low quality". I have seen low-tech metalwork of superb quality. Low-tech just means that the smith doesn't have power tools (e.g., power hammers), temperature controlled ovens for tempering, access to steel of known composition, quantitatively accurate hardness testers, etc.

Yes, differential hardening with a clay coating is more difficult than uniform quenching. I don't think this blade would have been done that way - probably edge-quenched instead.]

The difficulty in low-tech heat treatment isn't the quench. As you say, you can tell temperature of very hot steel by colour. The tricky part is tempering to reduce the brittleness after quenching. This will be even more the case if the blade is wootz (or some other very high carbon crucible steel); tricky enough so that wootz blades were often air-cooled rather than quenched.

Differential hardening, whether by differential quenching, differential tempering, or laminated/composite constructions like welded-edge/inserted-edge or sanmei add a lot of forgiveness to the heat-treatment process, especially tempering.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

"Low-tech" is not the same as "unskilled" or "low quality". I have seen low-tech metalwork of superb quality. Low-tech just means that the smith doesn't have power tools (e.g., power hammers), temperature controlled ovens for tempering, access to steel of known composition, quantitatively accurate hardness testers, etc.

Yes, differential hardening with a clay coating is more difficult than uniform quenching. I don't think this blade would have been done that way - probably edge-quenched instead.]

The difficulty in low-tech heat treatment isn't the quench. As you say, you can tell temperature of very hot steel by colour. The tricky part is tempering to reduce the brittleness after quenching. This will be even more the case if the blade is wootz (or some other very high carbon crucible steel); tricky enough so that wootz blades were often air-cooled rather than quenched.

Differential hardening, whether by differential quenching, differential tempering, or laminated/composite constructions like welded-edge/inserted-edge or sanmei add a lot of forgiveness to the heat-treatment process, especially tempering.

Interesting thoughts, thank you.

Yes much of the old tempering technique got lost. For example, many modern researchers laughing about the fact, that old blacksmiths were using prayers and religious songs during their work, because they don't know, that this was a kind of stopwatch for perfect timing.

In my opinion this blade is clay tempered, otherwise it would not have such a clear and bright hamon.

[Timo Nieminen]

I don't think you can tell by the contrast how the differential hardening was done. Width of the hardened region, and pattern - especially fancy patterns - can give you clues.

Also length of blade. It's harder to do an edge quench on very long blades.

But, in the end, if the smith knows what he's doing, differential hardening with a full quench with clay coating (AKA clay tempering, even though it isn't tempering) isn't that difficult. Compared to a full quench without clay, you need more materials and more knowledge, but not that much more. And it makes tempering more forgiving, so the overall heat treatment can be more reliable.

For an interesting example, see
http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/show...se-style-hamon
which shows some blades done with a combination of edge quench and clay coating. The dips and rises in the hamon have the same contrast - the dips are due to the clay, the tops of the rises are due to the edge quench.

Hamon from edge quench in wax:
http://edgematters.uk/thread/3117-blades-with-hamon/
A solid quench medium can make it easier to do edge quenching on curved blades. I have heard of fruit being used (traditionally).

[Sajen]

Hello Roland and Timo,

thank you both for your explanations!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Royston

Yes, I know, I am being greedy.

I have collected since the 70's and these are the only two I have ever seen. Both are horn, wood, horn although the horn is wrapped around the wood on the pommel end so I think they are one piece wooden hilts with horn decoration.

Sajen, I think you are correct about their rarity. Not surprising seeing the size of the Islands.

Regards
Roy

Hello Roy,

thank you very much for posting your two nice examples, the one in up seems to be very similar to my posted example. May I ask how long it is overall and the length of the blade?
It's most interesting that the handles are not simple wrapped with horn but the horn is covered with a piece of horn without a joint, a technic I never have seen before. This is also the problem by the restauration of my other example.
Again, two very nice and rare examples you own!

Best regards,
Detlef