Indian Pistols

Paul Duffy · 9th January 2017, 02:00 AM

I have the pair of percussion pistols illustrated..They are 37cm overall,barrells 24cm, the lock is silver & engraved.The pistols are half stocked, no but cap,& a rib under the barrell also holds a wooden, brass tipped ramrod.
The percussion hammer seems to be based on the patent pillbox hammer made by Joseph Manton.On p241 of The Mantons Gunmakers, is a colour photo of a pair of Joseph Manton pelletlock pistols which are similar to these pistols.

The hammers on my pistols fire a percussion cap only,there is no provision for a pellet or pilllock action.

The barrell is decorated with ornate gold work & a long inscription, I assume in Urdu.

The stock is lavishly decorated in Indian or Ottoman style.At first I thought the decoration was hundreds of tiny brass pins & painting.However under the forestock the decoration seems to have rubbed off in a section, & there are no pin holes. I wonder whether the decoration was made in a sheet & then glued to the stock.
Around the lock, & on the reverse side flat, the areas are edged in bone.

I assume the pistols were made in India, & I would appreciate any comments especially on a translation of the barrell inscription & on the decoration on the stock.
I am attaching some photos.

Fernando K · 9th January 2017, 11:34 AM

Hello

For me it is a pair of European pistols, in which the wood was used to decorate it and the same with the barrel, in which inscription and decoration with gold foil was made, in a known method.

Gabria to have a photograph nearer the decoration of the lock, to hold some opinion.

Affectionately. Fernando K

BANDOOK · 10th January 2017, 10:34 AM

GRETINGS PAUL,
PLEASE COULD YOU POST PICTURES OF THE COMPLETE PISTOL
REGARDS RAJESH

BANDOOK · 10th January 2017, 10:34 AM

GRETINGS PAUL,
PLEASE COULD YOU POST PICTURES OF THE COMPLETE PISTOL
REGARDS RAJESH

Oliver Pinchot · 10th January 2017, 05:42 PM

These pistols are Persian work, they exhibit strong overall European formal influence in contrast to the more characteristic khatam or mosaic work on the stocks. The barrels bear what appear to be couplets and a date, 1260 a.h. (1843/44 c.e.)

Paul Duffy · 11th January 2017, 09:12 PM

Rajesh, thanks, I'll posy a photo showing th ewhole pistol.
Fernando, I'll also post some photos showing the lock area.
Oliver, many thanks for your comments.
Regards,Paul

rickystl · 13th January 2017, 05:25 PM

That is a very nice, and unusual pair of pistols. And obviously made in percussion (not converted). And the apparent date offer by Oliver would also confirm that. While the hammer styling may seem it bit unusual, I think it was intentionally done that way as part of the overall styling exercise. The mixture of European and Persian influences sure make for an interesting pair. And they appear in great condition. First class craftmanship. Yes, more pics as mentioned above would be great. Thanks for posting.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 14th January 2017, 03:54 PM

Very nice indeed!

The locks and percussioning do seem to follow British style, as does the engraving, but such work was also seen on Persian work as Oliver states.

It would be interesting to see the interior of the lock, Plus the lock mortise if possible. That could tell us a lot!

Can't see well enough in the photos, but are the strikers detachable on these hammers?
Are there any signs of proofs on the barrel?
Again, very nice!

rickystl · 14th January 2017, 04:01 PM

I humbly second Pukka's request. Would be very interested in seeing the inside of the lock and mortice area.

Rick

Paul Duffy · 3rd February 2017, 11:20 PM

As promised I have attached more photos of the pistol, the inside of the lock, the hammer & mortise area, & the trigger guard.
I should have mentioned that there are no proof or view marks on or under the barrels, or any marks or stamps on the inside of the lock.Although the springs & tumblers seem to be well made.

On one pistol I have been able to remove the striker by removing the screw at the back of the hammer. One of the photos shows all the components. The screw in the other hammer is stuck.The striker can only ignite a percussion cap fixed to the nipple, however the set up is odd, & seems to be based on a pellet lock.

The iron trigger guard is engraved in a similar fashion to the lock plate, & you will see the pineapple finial to the trigger guard, which is attached in the usual way, a screw to the grip & a pin through the stock above the base of the pineapple.

In my first post I mentioned that the decoration seemed to have been "stuck on".This is incorrect, on closer inspection I can see hundreds of brass pins & brass pieces hammered into the stock. The thin brass pieces separate the lines of pins which make up the triangles & circles formed by the pins which are outlined in red.[I also have new lenses in my glasses!!]

I was confused by some repairs to the forend which have involve replacing damaged sections of stock with new wood & painting in a poor manner, some gold lines & decoration.

I am most grateful for your comments, as I am helping carry out some research on the pistols which will be published in the 2017 edition of Arms Cavalcade. The owner purchased the pistols over 30 years ago in Sydney.

Kubur · 4th February 2017, 08:44 AM

I see 1290/1873 for the date, for the rest I agree with Oliver (for the decoration and the text).
It should be a Persian pistol. I have seen some crude Afghan locks a bit similar to yours. Probably an attempt to imitate Persian models...
Some photos are missing to help you such as the whole butt, the other side of the pistol, the canon muzzle...
Best,
Kubur

BANDOOK · 4th February 2017, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Duffy

As promised I have attached more photos of the pistol, the inside of the lock, the hammer & mortise area, & the trigger guard.
I should have mentioned that there are no proof or view marks on or under the barrels, or any marks or stamps on the inside of the lock.Although the springs & tumblers seem to be well made.

On one pistol I have been able to remove the striker by removing the screw at the back of the hammer. One of the photos shows all the components. The screw in the other hammer is stuck.The striker can only ignite a percussion cap fixed to the nipple, however the set up is odd, & seems to be based on a pellet lock.

The iron trigger guard is engraved in a similar fashion to the lock plate, & you will see the pineapple finial to the trigger guard, which is attached in the usual way, a screw to the grip & a pin through the stock above the base of the pineapple.

In my first post I mentioned that the decoration seemed to have been "stuck on".This is incorrect, on closer inspection I can see hundreds of brass pins & brass pieces hammered into the stock. The thin brass pieces separate the lines of pins which make up the triangles & circles formed by the pins which are outlined in red.[I also have new lenses in my glasses!!]

I was confused by some repairs to the forend which have involve replacing damaged sections of stock with new wood & painting in a poor manner, some gold lines & decoration.

I am most grateful for your comments, as I am helping carry out some research on the pistols which will be published in the 2017 edition of Arms Cavalcade. The owner purchased the pistols over 30 years ago in Sydney.

THANKS FOR POSTING GOOD PICTURES,I LIKE THIS GUN,BUT AS SAID BY EXPERTS IT HAS MORE PERSIAN THAN INDIAN ,SO WE COULD PUT IT IN THE INDO-PERSIAN ERA,CHEERS

Pukka Bundook · 4th February 2017, 03:52 PM

By what I can see, the lock-work is very competently done and the sort of lock that would not surprise us or appear any way inferior on arms of European/British origin. Nice to see the stirrup on the tumbler.

Can't tell on the lock mortise, but may be a shade down on European inletting.
Very nice pistols!

rickystl · 4th February 2017, 06:13 PM

Thanks for the additional photos. From the photo the internals of the lock do indeed appear to be European made. Or at least to that standard. Although the engraving does look more Persian in style. That hammer assembly is really unique. Believe it's the first I've ever seen. A very interesting design. But I can't figure out the purpose of the two hammer pieces with the set screw (?)
Must be something I'm not thinking of. Hmmmm.Do any of you think the lock was European or Persian made - before any decoration was applied ?

I note the Persian style mosaic work on the stock. Below, is a photo of the mosaic work from a Persian long gun I own. Note the similarities.

Overall, it seems the pistols are all Persian made. With a general outline of the European half-stock pistols of the period. I seldom see ALL Persian made guns. And you almost never see any come up for sale. I don't know why there seem to be so few examples remaining today compared to others from the rest of the Ottoman Empire. I know this has been discussed on the Forum in the past.

Now, come to think of it.......It seems that I have seen this percussion hammer style many years ago on a pair of cased, European dueling pistols. But my memory is not what it used to be. LOL

Anyway, a very neat pair of pistols. And if ALL Persian made, even more desirable. Thanks for posting.

Rick

Paul Duffy · 10th February 2017, 12:31 AM

Gents, many thanks for all your comments. I will do some more research on Persian pistols.
And I wouldn't have perserved with unscrewing the Hammer & mortise without your thoughts.

9th January 2017, 02:00 AM	#1
Paul Duffy Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31	Indian Pistols I have the pair of percussion pistols illustrated..They are 37cm overall,barrells 24cm, the lock is silver & engraved.The pistols are half stocked, no but cap,& a rib under the barrell also holds a wooden, brass tipped ramrod. The percussion hammer seems to be based on the patent pillbox hammer made by Joseph Manton.On p241 of The Mantons Gunmakers, is a colour photo of a pair of Joseph Manton pelletlock pistols which are similar to these pistols. The hammers on my pistols fire a percussion cap only,there is no provision for a pellet or pilllock action. The barrell is decorated with ornate gold work & a long inscription, I assume in Urdu. The stock is lavishly decorated in Indian or Ottoman style.At first I thought the decoration was hundreds of tiny brass pins & painting.However under the forestock the decoration seems to have rubbed off in a section, & there are no pin holes. I wonder whether the decoration was made in a sheet & then glued to the stock. Around the lock, & on the reverse side flat, the areas are edged in bone. I assume the pistols were made in India, & I would appreciate any comments especially on a translation of the barrell inscription & on the decoration on the stock. I am attaching some photos. Attached Images

11th January 2017, 09:12 PM	#6
Paul Duffy Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31	Indian Pistols Rajesh, thanks, I'll posy a photo showing th ewhole pistol. Fernando, I'll also post some photos showing the lock area. Oliver, many thanks for your comments. Regards,Paul

3rd February 2017, 11:20 PM	#10
Paul Duffy Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31	As promised I have attached more photos of the pistol, the inside of the lock, the hammer & mortise area, & the trigger guard. I should have mentioned that there are no proof or view marks on or under the barrels, or any marks or stamps on the inside of the lock.Although the springs & tumblers seem to be well made. On one pistol I have been able to remove the striker by removing the screw at the back of the hammer. One of the photos shows all the components. The screw in the other hammer is stuck.The striker can only ignite a percussion cap fixed to the nipple, however the set up is odd, & seems to be based on a pellet lock. The iron trigger guard is engraved in a similar fashion to the lock plate, & you will see the pineapple finial to the trigger guard, which is attached in the usual way, a screw to the grip & a pin through the stock above the base of the pineapple. In my first post I mentioned that the decoration seemed to have been "stuck on".This is incorrect, on closer inspection I can see hundreds of brass pins & brass pieces hammered into the stock. The thin brass pieces separate the lines of pins which make up the triangles & circles formed by the pins which are outlined in red.[I also have new lenses in my glasses!!] I was confused by some repairs to the forend which have involve replacing damaged sections of stock with new wood & painting in a poor manner, some gold lines & decoration. I am most grateful for your comments, as I am helping carry out some research on the pistols which will be published in the 2017 edition of Arms Cavalcade. The owner purchased the pistols over 30 years ago in Sydney. Attached Images

4th February 2017, 06:13 PM	#14
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Thanks for the additional photos. From the photo the internals of the lock do indeed appear to be European made. Or at least to that standard. Although the engraving does look more Persian in style. That hammer assembly is really unique. Believe it's the first I've ever seen. A very interesting design. But I can't figure out the purpose of the two hammer pieces with the set screw (?) Must be something I'm not thinking of. Hmmmm.Do any of you think the lock was European or Persian made - before any decoration was applied ? I note the Persian style mosaic work on the stock. Below, is a photo of the mosaic work from a Persian long gun I own. Note the similarities. Overall, it seems the pistols are all Persian made. With a general outline of the European half-stock pistols of the period. I seldom see ALL Persian made guns. And you almost never see any come up for sale. I don't know why there seem to be so few examples remaining today compared to others from the rest of the Ottoman Empire. I know this has been discussed on the Forum in the past. Now, come to think of it.......It seems that I have seen this percussion hammer style many years ago on a pair of cased, European dueling pistols. But my memory is not what it used to be. LOL Anyway, a very neat pair of pistols. And if ALL Persian made, even more desirable. Thanks for posting. Rick Attached Images

9th January 2017, 11:34 AM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello For me it is a pair of European pistols, in which the wood was used to decorate it and the same with the barrel, in which inscription and decoration with gold foil was made, in a known method. Gabria to have a photograph nearer the decoration of the lock, to hold some opinion. Affectionately. Fernando K

10th January 2017, 10:34 AM	#3
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	GRETINGS PAUL, PLEASE COULD YOU POST PICTURES OF THE COMPLETE PISTOL REGARDS RAJESH

10th January 2017, 05:42 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	These pistols are Persian work, they exhibit strong overall European formal influence in contrast to the more characteristic khatam or mosaic work on the stocks. The barrels bear what appear to be couplets and a date, 1260 a.h. (1843/44 c.e.)

13th January 2017, 05:25 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	That is a very nice, and unusual pair of pistols. And obviously made in percussion (not converted). And the apparent date offer by Oliver would also confirm that. While the hammer styling may seem it bit unusual, I think it was intentionally done that way as part of the overall styling exercise. The mixture of European and Persian influences sure make for an interesting pair. And they appear in great condition. First class craftmanship. Yes, more pics as mentioned above would be great. Thanks for posting. Rick

14th January 2017, 03:54 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Very nice indeed! The locks and percussioning do seem to follow British style, as does the engraving, but such work was also seen on Persian work as Oliver states. It would be interesting to see the interior of the lock, Plus the lock mortise if possible. That could tell us a lot! Can't see well enough in the photos, but are the strikers detachable on these hammers? Are there any signs of proofs on the barrel? Again, very nice!

14th January 2017, 04:01 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I humbly second Pukka's request. Would be very interested in seeing the inside of the lock and mortice area. Rick

4th February 2017, 08:44 AM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I see 1290/1873 for the date, for the rest I agree with Oliver (for the decoration and the text). It should be a Persian pistol. I have seen some crude Afghan locks a bit similar to yours. Probably an attempt to imitate Persian models... Some photos are missing to help you such as the whole butt, the other side of the pistol, the canon muzzle... Best, Kubur

4th February 2017, 03:52 PM	#13
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	By what I can see, the lock-work is very competently done and the sort of lock that would not surprise us or appear any way inferior on arms of European/British origin. Nice to see the stirrup on the tumbler. Can't tell on the lock mortise, but may be a shade down on European inletting. Very nice pistols!

10th February 2017, 12:31 AM	#15
Paul Duffy Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31	Gents, many thanks for all your comments. I will do some more research on Persian pistols. And I wouldn't have perserved with unscrewing the Hammer & mortise without your thoughts.