Old Spanish Colonial Sword-Curious Blade

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2024, 04:43 AM

This old Spanish sword I was told many years ago had come from the Carolinas. The striated shell guard vertical to the hilt, and the downward inner langet as with sash worn weapons. In posts about 2 years ago, it was suggested that the blade is notably newer than the hilt, but clearly a very old pairing.

The hilt form is suggestive of espada ancha in degree, but earlier in 18th century than the typical forms of the Mexican frontiers.
In the illustration from "Lore of Arms", William Reid, 1976, p.124, a Spanish sword by Corrientes (Toledo, Madrid, d.1733) is shown reflecting possible proto-form for the hilt from late 17th c.

The blade is backsword, 33.5 " long, and would seem a horsemans.
The puzzling thing is this elliptical central fuller, which does not seem 18th century, nor Spanish.

Can anyone help with identifying the blade, which seems pretty unusual.

fernando · 8th February 2024, 10:04 AM

Jim, is it me, or you have posted this one a while back ?

.

.

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2024, 01:33 PM

Yup, I did, and your help with the detail on that maker, Corrientes, was remarkable! That gave me just the support I hoped for in establishing the hilt form as quite early (in comparison to the espada ancha firm of later in the 18th c).
In the thread "The Espada Ancha Myth" (another of my attempts at encouraging interest in these esoteric weapons) of July, 2022, Midelburgo noted also that the hilt was notably earlier than the blade.

So I brought the sword to this thread to focus on the blade, which is of a type I have not seen, especially on a Spanish colonial sword, so am hoping someone out there might recognize the unusual fuller shape. A separate thread seemed the best bet.

midelburgo · 7th April 2024, 11:30 PM

Hello,
I have not been around for several months.

These hilts are typically Brazilean, many sport inscriptions with emperor Pedro II of Brazil. Old thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zilian+cutlass

Your blade remembers me of cavalry ones made by Alex Coppel for Brazil (last at the bottom). Similar to British 1853. But all these are slightly curved.

Last year I bought one of them at a good price. With what seemed a German export XVIIIth century blade for the Spanish market.

I am still puzzled. All the parts seem perfectly made, no reproduction, distal tape, balance, engravings, a very sharp blade... all seem correct. But they look like recently made.

I have been searching if anybody makes them, with no results. Seller had no idea of the Brazilean origins. The blade is just the same as others I have but just new! No horn grip, it is wood. Current hypothesis is that somebody made an iron wrought modern hilt for an old blade. Brutal weapon.

By the way, it seems somebody is making very accurate copies of Spanish swords now (1728 model). I hanged a warning at Esgrima Antigua (but that forum seems dead now).

https://www.esgrimaantigua.com/forum...5fe65001ae22ce

awdaniec666 · 9th April 2024, 01:38 AM

Maybe more and better images of the blade would help..

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2024, 02:52 PM

Midelburgo, thank you for reviving this thread of mine, and for your addition of this interesting example of what we agree seems a style of hilt in vogue in Spanish South America, particularly in Brazil. It seems these hilts with the distinct 'hand nock' for the back of the hand in grip, may have influence from Spains colonies in Morocco, and the familiar sa'if known as 'nimcha'.

As the 'Spanish Main' in the 'South Seas' of Central and South America was of course active with trade networks that well connected these areas, and in the 19th century it seems that these forms of espada combined these traditional hilt forms with more modern blades in numerous instances.

It seems that while British blades were commonly used on these , in the case of the example you have posted is what appears to be a Toledo made saber blade of the late 18th c.(after the factory was reopened by Carlos III c. 1770).
The hilt is you note seems refabricated, but seems possibly a traditional refurbishing from the 19th century and perhaps genuinely intended for use in these regions.

It seems well known that in colonial regions swords were often refurbished for continued use with various old components, as the sword remained a traditional icon. These were stubbornly retained as an element of armament despite notions of obsolescence as secondary to firearms. I think of the notorious 'rurales' of Porfirio Diaz in Mexico, who despite being heavily armed with rifles and revolvers, insisted on wearing cavalry sabers into the early 20th c.

In the case of my example (OP) I had often thought of the blade being much later, and indeed perhaps British, but admit that I was reluctant to accept that the hilt, obviously quite old, was not homogenous to the blade.
In more recent years after learning more on the Spanish colonial swords of these regions, I can see how a valued old hilt would be joined with a newer blade in the circumstances in the 19th century I have noted.

As seen in the illustration from Reid (1976, p.124) showing a Spanish hunting sword with remarkably similar hilt style of the 18th c. illustrates early these 'nimcha' type hilts were in use. The noted feature of the striated shell guard popular with Spanish sword hilts is also well represented.

I have heard of the modern reproductions of the M1728 Spanish 'bilbo' but not of any particular line of same with these type hilts. The espada ancha (machete) of Mexico seems to have remained still in use in degree by charros there well into 20th century so modern versions seem to be around.

8th February 2024, 04:43 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Old Spanish Colonial Sword-Curious Blade This old Spanish sword I was told many years ago had come from the Carolinas. The striated shell guard vertical to the hilt, and the downward inner langet as with sash worn weapons. In posts about 2 years ago, it was suggested that the blade is notably newer than the hilt, but clearly a very old pairing. The hilt form is suggestive of espada ancha in degree, but earlier in 18th century than the typical forms of the Mexican frontiers. In the illustration from "Lore of Arms", William Reid, 1976, p.124, a Spanish sword by Corrientes (Toledo, Madrid, d.1733) is shown reflecting possible proto-form for the hilt from late 17th c. The blade is backsword, 33.5 " long, and would seem a horsemans. The puzzling thing is this elliptical central fuller, which does not seem 18th century, nor Spanish. Can anyone help with identifying the blade, which seems pretty unusual. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th February 2024 at 04:56 AM.

8th February 2024, 10:04 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, is it me, or you have posted this one a while back ? . . Last edited by fernando; 8th February 2024 at 12:02 PM.

7th April 2024, 11:30 PM	#4
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	Hello, I have not been around for several months. These hilts are typically Brazilean, many sport inscriptions with emperor Pedro II of Brazil. Old thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zilian+cutlass Your blade remembers me of cavalry ones made by Alex Coppel for Brazil (last at the bottom). Similar to British 1853. But all these are slightly curved. Last year I bought one of them at a good price. With what seemed a German export XVIIIth century blade for the Spanish market. I am still puzzled. All the parts seem perfectly made, no reproduction, distal tape, balance, engravings, a very sharp blade... all seem correct. But they look like recently made. I have been searching if anybody makes them, with no results. Seller had no idea of the Brazilean origins. The blade is just the same as others I have but just new! No horn grip, it is wood. Current hypothesis is that somebody made an iron wrought modern hilt for an old blade. Brutal weapon. By the way, it seems somebody is making very accurate copies of Spanish swords now (1728 model). I hanged a warning at Esgrima Antigua (but that forum seems dead now). https://www.esgrimaantigua.com/forum...5fe65001ae22ce Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 8th April 2024 at 02:09 AM.

8th February 2024, 01:33 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Yup, I did, and your help with the detail on that maker, Corrientes, was remarkable! That gave me just the support I hoped for in establishing the hilt form as quite early (in comparison to the espada ancha firm of later in the 18th c). In the thread "The Espada Ancha Myth" (another of my attempts at encouraging interest in these esoteric weapons) of July, 2022, Midelburgo noted also that the hilt was notably earlier than the blade. So I brought the sword to this thread to focus on the blade, which is of a type I have not seen, especially on a Spanish colonial sword, so am hoping someone out there might recognize the unusual fuller shape. A separate thread seemed the best bet.

9th April 2024, 01:38 AM	#5
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 166	Maybe more and better images of the blade would help..

9th April 2024, 02:52 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Midelburgo, thank you for reviving this thread of mine, and for your addition of this interesting example of what we agree seems a style of hilt in vogue in Spanish South America, particularly in Brazil. It seems these hilts with the distinct 'hand nock' for the back of the hand in grip, may have influence from Spains colonies in Morocco, and the familiar sa'if known as 'nimcha'. As the 'Spanish Main' in the 'South Seas' of Central and South America was of course active with trade networks that well connected these areas, and in the 19th century it seems that these forms of espada combined these traditional hilt forms with more modern blades in numerous instances. It seems that while British blades were commonly used on these , in the case of the example you have posted is what appears to be a Toledo made saber blade of the late 18th c.(after the factory was reopened by Carlos III c. 1770). The hilt is you note seems refabricated, but seems possibly a traditional refurbishing from the 19th century and perhaps genuinely intended for use in these regions. It seems well known that in colonial regions swords were often refurbished for continued use with various old components, as the sword remained a traditional icon. These were stubbornly retained as an element of armament despite notions of obsolescence as secondary to firearms. I think of the notorious 'rurales' of Porfirio Diaz in Mexico, who despite being heavily armed with rifles and revolvers, insisted on wearing cavalry sabers into the early 20th c. In the case of my example (OP) I had often thought of the blade being much later, and indeed perhaps British, but admit that I was reluctant to accept that the hilt, obviously quite old, was not homogenous to the blade. In more recent years after learning more on the Spanish colonial swords of these regions, I can see how a valued old hilt would be joined with a newer blade in the circumstances in the 19th century I have noted. As seen in the illustration from Reid (1976, p.124) showing a Spanish hunting sword with remarkably similar hilt style of the 18th c. illustrates early these 'nimcha' type hilts were in use. The noted feature of the striated shell guard popular with Spanish sword hilts is also well represented. I have heard of the modern reproductions of the M1728 Spanish 'bilbo' but not of any particular line of same with these type hilts. The espada ancha (machete) of Mexico seems to have remained still in use in degree by charros there well into 20th century so modern versions seem to be around.