Tulwar Hilt Straight Blade, Sukhela?

Norman McCormick · 19th February 2011, 08:15 PM

Hi Guys,
Picked this up today, blade length a touch over 30 inches and width at widest 1 1/2 inches, blade is thinner than I'm used to on Indian swords but very springy and flexible. It was covered in a thick layer of tobacco tar and took time to clean but it did reveal traces of goldwork on top of the pommel and under the langets so should have been a looker in its day. I think this sword might be a bit special re Indian swords so I look forward with interest to your thoughts and opinions.
There is a thread started by Gav, 'freebooter', on 'Straight bladed Tulwars', with posts by Jim, Jens and others which I think has pertinence to this sword but I don't know how to do a link

Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 19th February 2011, 10:44 PM

Fine looking sword Norman. Is it an imported blade?

Gavin Nugent · 19th February 2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Guys,
Picked this up today, blade length a touch over 30 inches and width at widest 1 1/2 inches, blade is thinner than I'm used to on Indian swords but very springy and flexible. It was covered in a thick layer of tobacco tar and took time to clean but it did reveal traces of goldwork on top of the pommel and under the langets so should have been a looker in its day. I think this sword might be a bit special re Indian swords so I look forward with interest in your thoughts and opinions.
There is a thread started by Gav, 'freebooter', on 'Straight bladed Tulwars', with posts by Jim, Jens and others which I think has pertinence to this sword but I don't know how to do a link

Regards,
Norman.

Both popular and nice Norman, I like them, thanks for sharing.

Here is the link;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+bladed+tulwar

I'm working my way through to your request, I hope it is not time critical...sorry.

Gav

Norman McCormick · 19th February 2011, 11:06 PM

Hi Gene,
Thanks, I've no idea if this is a European blade or not there are absolutely no markings at all.

Hi Gav,
Thanks for posting the link. Request not time sensitive I bought 2 Arabian matchlocks with this sword!, pocket money all gone this month, which I will post in due course.

Regards to you both,
Norman.

P.S. Attached a better photo of the hilt top.

Lew · 20th February 2011, 03:15 AM

Hi Norman

Very nice kirash you have early to mid 19th century.

Norman McCormick · 20th February 2011, 11:00 AM

Hi Lew,
Thanks, from what I have read this blade does not have the downward curve that appears to define a Kirach/Kirash or is this attribute not necessary in the definition? Thanks again.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2011, 11:31 PM

Hi Norman,
You are right in noting that the kirach is supposed to be not entirely straight, a slight curve toward the tip. Terminology in Indian swords in particular among ethnographic forms can sometimes be remarkably confusing.

In my understanding this may probably best be considered a sukhela as you have rightly suggested. While the term itself also has applications to a low carbon type steel used in India and often believed associated with these, it primarily refers to a straight bladed sword. Apparantly these straight bladed swords are highly regarded as representation of authority, in essence, a 'sword of state' and carried by court officials, awarded to soldiers in high esteem and honored and other similar stations. The straight bladed sword I believe in Marathi is termed 'dhup' but obviously thier swords were khanda (or firangi) and pata which had straight blades, so it is puzzling to consider how that would apply.

This is of course an Indian made blade, and you have acquired an usual and interesting sword.

It would be interesting if someone could post a kirach so we might compare these, as well as better explain the dhup term....Jens?

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 21st February 2011, 12:37 AM

An extreme example .

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2011, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

An extreme example .

of a kirach.

Lew · 21st February 2011, 02:31 AM

Jim

Kirash shaped blades are a bit confusing even the slightest downward curve could classify the blade as kirash?

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=903

Norman McCormick · 21st February 2011, 02:17 PM

Hi All,
Here are some more photos. I have tried to demonstrate the flex in the blade, good springy steel. I have also tried to give a better perspective re the straightness of the blade, it has obviously been sharpened a few times but to my mind there is no indication of a forward curve. The resin used to fix the blade into the hilt has a distinctive dark red hue whether this is of any consequence I don't know.
Regards,
Norman.

Rick · 23rd February 2011, 03:12 AM

It appears that I have one in fine grain wootz .

Never tried the flex much before .

So, what is the form called?

Not a kirach; a dhup ?

Norman McCormick · 24th February 2011, 10:45 PM

Hi Rick,
Thanks for posting your example, bend and all. Although I would need the sword in hand to be absolutely sure I can't see any sign of the forward curve which appears to classify and identify a Kirach/Kirash. If the sword I posted had a Scottish or English Basket Hilt rather than a 'Tulwar' type I'm sure it could be classified as a backsword with an unmarked continental European trade blade probably German. I'm pretty sure and with my limited experience, this may be a phrase I live to regret, that the blade is Indian made but more 18thC than 19thC. I just don't think this sword fits into the Kirach mould. This is not the only Indian sword that I have which isn't easily pigeonholed so maybe it is not so unusual to find unclassified and variant forms here and there from such an old and vast civilisation.
Regards,
Norman.

19th February 2011, 08:15 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Tulwar Hilt Straight Blade, Sukhela? Hi Guys, Picked this up today, blade length a touch over 30 inches and width at widest 1 1/2 inches, blade is thinner than I'm used to on Indian swords but very springy and flexible. It was covered in a thick layer of tobacco tar and took time to clean but it did reveal traces of goldwork on top of the pommel and under the langets so should have been a looker in its day. I think this sword might be a bit special re Indian swords so I look forward with interest to your thoughts and opinions. There is a thread started by Gav, 'freebooter', on 'Straight bladed Tulwars', with posts by Jim, Jens and others which I think has pertinence to this sword but I don't know how to do a link Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 19th February 2011 at 11:00 PM.

19th February 2011, 11:06 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Gene, Thanks, I've no idea if this is a European blade or not there are absolutely no markings at all. Hi Gav, Thanks for posting the link. Request not time sensitive I bought 2 Arabian matchlocks with this sword!, pocket money all gone this month, which I will post in due course. Regards to you both, Norman. P.S. Attached a better photo of the hilt top. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 20th February 2011 at 10:32 PM.

20th February 2011, 11:00 AM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Lew, Thanks, from what I have read this blade does not have the downward curve that appears to define a Kirach/Kirash or is this attribute not necessary in the definition? Thanks again. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 20th February 2011 at 09:42 PM.

21st February 2011, 12:37 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	An extreme example . Attached Images

21st February 2011, 02:17 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi All, Here are some more photos. I have tried to demonstrate the flex in the blade, good springy steel. I have also tried to give a better perspective re the straightness of the blade, it has obviously been sharpened a few times but to my mind there is no indication of a forward curve. The resin used to fix the blade into the hilt has a distinctive dark red hue whether this is of any consequence I don't know. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

19th February 2011, 10:44 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Fine looking sword Norman. Is it an imported blade?

20th February 2011, 03:15 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Norman Very nice kirash you have early to mid 19th century.

20th February 2011, 11:31 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Hi Norman, You are right in noting that the kirach is supposed to be not entirely straight, a slight curve toward the tip. Terminology in Indian swords in particular among ethnographic forms can sometimes be remarkably confusing. In my understanding this may probably best be considered a sukhela as you have rightly suggested. While the term itself also has applications to a low carbon type steel used in India and often believed associated with these, it primarily refers to a straight bladed sword. Apparantly these straight bladed swords are highly regarded as representation of authority, in essence, a 'sword of state' and carried by court officials, awarded to soldiers in high esteem and honored and other similar stations. The straight bladed sword I believe in Marathi is termed 'dhup' but obviously thier swords were khanda (or firangi) and pata which had straight blades, so it is puzzling to consider how that would apply. This is of course an Indian made blade, and you have acquired an usual and interesting sword. It would be interesting if someone could post a kirach so we might compare these, as well as better explain the dhup term....Jens? All the best, Jim

21st February 2011, 02:31 AM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim Kirash shaped blades are a bit confusing even the slightest downward curve could classify the blade as kirash? http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=903

23rd February 2011, 03:12 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	It appears that I have one in fine grain wootz . Never tried the flex much before . So, what is the form called? Not a kirach; a dhup ? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 23rd February 2011 at 03:41 AM.

24th February 2011, 10:45 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Rick, Thanks for posting your example, bend and all. Although I would need the sword in hand to be absolutely sure I can't see any sign of the forward curve which appears to classify and identify a Kirach/Kirash. If the sword I posted had a Scottish or English Basket Hilt rather than a 'Tulwar' type I'm sure it could be classified as a backsword with an unmarked continental European trade blade probably German. I'm pretty sure and with my limited experience, this may be a phrase I live to regret, that the blade is Indian made but more 18thC than 19thC. I just don't think this sword fits into the Kirach mould. This is not the only Indian sword that I have which isn't easily pigeonholed so maybe it is not so unusual to find unclassified and variant forms here and there from such an old and vast civilisation. Regards, Norman.