Javanese Keris ID

[HughChen]

Hi, all

A friend showed me two Javanese Keris. They are alleged to be from 1900s (I don't know if it's ture). Can you identify them?

Why almost every Keris always be alleged to be from 1900s?

Many old Keris seems to be white but doesn't have too much red rust. Is that a valid method to identify old keris?

Another question, it's said in the process of forging, Keris will be folded 500 times. Is that real?

[David]

Blades look legitimately old. First one could easily be 19th century. The second blade is possibly older.
That's also a very strange hilt on the second blade. I don't think it was originally intended for a keris.

[Rick]

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

[A. G. Maisey]

The method of production used to make most keris blades does indeed produce a large number of layers of material.

Using the most simple method of production, which begins with only 2 pieces of material placed into the forge as a bundle of 2, & then forge welded, the result from that first weld is a billet with 2 layers.

That 2 layer billet is then folded & welded like this:-

2 . 4 . 8 . 16 . 32 . 64 . 128

this is a pretty common progression, at 128 layers the billet is then folded again and a piece of steel that will form the core of the blade is inserted between the two halves of the billet and another weld is taken, the result is then 128 + 128 + 1 = 257 layers.

If the steel that is now the core of the blade was folded in production before insertion into the halved billet, then the number of layers will exceed 257 by the number of layers in the steel.

If the fold & weld process that applies to the material used to enclose the steel core has proceeded past 7 welds, then the layers of material in the blade can be much higher and could run into thousands of layers very easily.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The method of production used to make most keris blades does indeed produce a large number of layers of material.

Using the most simple method of production, which begins with only 2 pieces of material placed into the forge as a bundle of 2, & then forge welded, the result from that first weld is a billet with 2 layers.

That 2 layer billet is then folded & welded like this:-

2 . 4 . 8 . 16 . 32 . 64 . 128

this is a pretty common progression, at 128 layers the billet is then folded again and a piece of steel that will form the core of the blade is inserted between the two halves of the billet and another weld is taken, the result is then 128 + 128 + 1 = 257 layers.

If the steel that is now the core of the blade was folded in production before insertion into the halved billet, then the number of layers will exceed 257 by the number of layers in the steel.

If the fold & weld process that applies to the material used to enclose the steel core has proceeded past 7 welds, then the layers of material in the blade can be much higher and could run into thousands of layers very easily.

Think you Maisey!

[A. G. Maisey]

Post #1.

the majority of keris that we encounter can be attributed to the 1800's, ie, 19th century, because there were more people who wore keris in the 19th century than in previous periods, thus more keris were made, & because it is closer to our own time, more have survived.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

Hi, Rick， Like this

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Hi, Rick， Like this

But it's not Batak work, these hilts are common on Lombok.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

The hilt is from a betel crusher from Lombok, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel

[sirek]

Hello HughChen, if you watch this video on youtube then you understand the process a bit. There are more videos on this channel so you can follow the whole process and then you see how much work goes into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH2PLK4c0uw

[A. G. Maisey]

That's a good video, gives a real good idea of the forge work involved in producing the billet from which a keris is made, but this part of the process, although hot & heavy work, is the easy part, and the part that many makers are happy enough to farm out to somebody else.

Sometimes they supervise the smith & the strikers, sometimes not, just give instructions and pay for the end result.

The really difficult part of making a keris is the cold work, the carving.

I've made a few keris, the longest time it took me to produce a keris blade was 49 man-days, 8 & 10 hour working days.

Of those 49 days, there were 9 days spent on forge work, three men, a smith and two strikers, working for three days.

The balance of the time was spent on carving the keris.

It could have been carved more quickly if I had used electric tools, but I used all traditional tools, not electric.

There really is a lot of work in making a keris.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The hilt is from a betel crusher from Lombok, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel

Yup.
That's what I had in mind Sajen.